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> Howa Bedding
Howa Bedding
@ 09:26 am (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerI’ve enjoyed reading articles and viewing videos that are available on this site I ordered The Practical Guide To Longe Range Hunting Rifles. I read from cover to cover the day I got it. I have a new stock on order for a Howa 1500. I’m going to fully bed the stock. I was wondering if someone would mind explaining why you tape the bottom of the recoil lug on this rifle? It makes sense to me on one that has a recoil lug separate from the action bolt. Would it not cause some torque on the action of the Howa if it had room to draw down on the lug? I over think everything! I just want to build the most accurate rifle I can with what I’ve got. Thank you. |
Replies
@ 11:08 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingHi Brandon. Relieving the lug’s bottom surface is optional. The force of the forward action screw at 55 inch-lbs. is not sufficient to bend the action into the “void,” as it were (despite the Model 70’s alleged improvement on the Mauser design by relocating the screw directly under the bolt lugs). The purpose of the void is to prevent inadvertently introducing crumbs of bedding material (that might fall into the recoil lug recess during reassembly) from inhibiting full seating of the action into the bedding platform when the screw is torqued. |
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@ 11:49 am (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerRe: Howa BeddingThank you for the information. I had read both ways and figured to follow the directions found on this site. That was the only part I wasn’t understanding. |
@ 08:22 am (GMT) |
Jon ShortRe: Howa BeddingHi Brandon,I have bedded (front & rear, not full length) four Howas all in different stock types but including the plastic & rubber Hogue & a laminated timber classic Boyd. I tapped the bottom of the front recoil lug as well as the front & sides of it all the way along the vertical sides of the action, & I taped the back of the rear tang etc all as per Nathans advice. All of these rifles shoot 0.5-0.75 MOA no problem with tuned hand loads. I would think that the tape at the bottom has nothing to do with allowing space for bedding crumbs. The action & bedding area should be supper clean when you assemble. The tape locations as far as I am aware is to allow the action to consistently move back to battery position shot after shot (or something along those lines) as Nathan puts it. I grease the action & barrel before assembly & others use CRC soft seal as a corrosion preventative too. There is a big flat horizontal bearing area behind the front recoil lug to that is bedded providing a large support area & in addition the know of the barrel is bedded so relieving the underside of the lug may help ensure that these bearing surfaces are snug too with no gap that perhaps could occur if the recoil lug bottoms out on the bedding preventing ideal contact to bedding at the knox & the horizontal flat area behind the recoil lug. Nathan may be able to chime in on things to put us all right. Kind Regards, Jon |
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@ 09:49 am (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerRe: Howa BeddingI really appreciate your reply. I had sent Nathan a message prior to figuring out how to post on the forum. He sent me a very comprehensive reply. I just finished bedding it this weekend. Waiting for a break in the wind to go see how it shoots. With hand loads, I was getting 3/4-1” groups at 100 yards with the hogue stock. The reason for replacing the stock was the amount of flex with a bipod attached. If I leaned into it a little to hard the stock would flex and touch the barrel, if not hard enough, on recoil it would touch. Hopefully the Boyd’s ends up being an improvement and not quite as sensitive to bipod loading. |
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@ 11:22 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingHi, Jon. I agree that the flat surface of the action behind the recoil lug, and at the knox, are where you want good contact with the bedding platform. You don’t want the action “riding” on the bottom of the lug, causing poor contact at either of those critical points-of-contact. On page 150 of the Accurizing book, Nathan says he recommends relieving the bottom of the recoil lug:“One of the reasons why I teach folk to tape relief is based on the long standing principle that invariably, people will accidentally scrape the bedding when fitting the action to the finished (bedded) stock during routine maintenance. These crumbs, along with any trapped protective coatings, can jack the action up off its bedding.” Excerpt From The Practical Guide To Bolt Action Rifle Accurizing And Maintenance Nathan Foster This material may be protected by copyright. |
@ 03:23 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Howa BeddingI know how busy Nathan is so l will offer a few thoughts on this for what they are worth.With bedding, the exposed base/top of any recoil lug should have relief to stop it being ridden on, regardless of whether it is captive in the action or separate like a Mauser/Tikka. I would call it critical! Any action will pull into position (bed) with normal torques applied. With the Howa the anchor point is the bottom of the recoil lug. Sit a dial indicator on the action and torque the screws, it will move hence this being just one benefit of correct epoxy bedding. Nathans torque test also shows this to a degree if the action climbs out of the stock. All rifles with rifled barrels have 3 major forces acting on them when fired, recoil, torque/twist and harmonics/vibration caused by the detonation of the propellant. Bedding needs to deal with all of them. The tape provides "X" thousandths' clearance depending on brand etc. Allowing controlled transfer of these energies to the stock & return to battery as Jon has said. If the action cannot move correctly the result is poor or double groups that often get worse with heat. Scotts listed example from Nathan is just one reason to make sure the lug has relief. |
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@ 03:48 pm (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerRe: Howa BeddingThank you. That all makes sense. |
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@ 07:21 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingHi, Marty. I assume when you said “Mauser/Tikka” that you were talking about the new M18 with the Tikka-style recoil lug embedded in the stock. It seems to me that to transfer torque to the stock, the flat-bottom actions (M98, Model 70, Howa 1500, Sako) accomplish it by the force of the action screws drawing the flat action down against the bedding surface. In other words, there’s no rotational force to be taken up by the recoil lug. Plus you’ve got the flat surface of the tang. (Relieving the rear of the tang is to prevent the rearward force of recoil from slamming into and cracking the bedding material behind it.) With a tubular action, you’ve got a cylinder within a cylinder, so the torque has to be dealt with by the recoil lug or pillars in the action screw holes. The Model 700 has a flat tang to resist torque, the Savages do not. Some of the tubular actions have flat spots on the bottom of the actions, a hybrid-design of sorts. Still, it’s hard for me to visualize why you’d want a “gap” between a Tikka action and the recoil lug embedded in the stock, other than maybe to prevent the action from “riding” on the lug, thus preventing good contact of the rest of the action with the bedding. There’s certainly no danger of “crumbs” collecting on it. |
@ 07:57 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Howa BeddingJust a quick one sorry. Random notes.Marty, yes I have been busy. That was a well written post which will help others thanks. I tested Tikka lug relief thoroughly during the design of the compound. During the design phase, I bedded the same Tikka and similarly designed rifles several times with different aspects of relief and contact. If the Top of the Tikka lug touches the action, the rifle may double group. Folk can argue the reasons why, I am not too fussed. I have tested this thoroughly. Marty also spent a great deal of time bedding and studying this rifle design, adding more insights which I have been most grateful for. The tang of the Remington M700 is round. Clones are generally the same. The Savage does not have a tang as such (as per the subject of bedding). The rear screw is located ahead of the trigger, not behind it. Bedding extends to the rear of the mag well. It does not extend into the trigger well or behind this. The factory Howa rifles normally have a gap under the recoil lug which may be 3 to 4mm deep. the exception to this is those rifles with a 'dollop of hot goo' bedding at the lug as sold by Weatherby (Vanguard). General rule - place equal focus on both contact and relief (return to battery). The video message I sent to Brandon can be viewed here (Howa tape relief): https://vimeo.com/channels/nathanfoster Further down the page there is another exchange regarding a Howa (axiom) which may also be relevant. |
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@ 02:33 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingOther than the crumb issue, I’ve often wondered why you would want a modicum of slop (“X” thousandths, as Marty put it), by relieving with tape. You guys have obviously established it works. Maybe the stock material compresses a bit, causing the action to ride on the embedded recoil lug of the Tikka? My question is probably akin to asking, Why hone your cylinder walls? |
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@ 07:24 am (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerRe: Howa BeddingI finished the bedding job last weekend on the Howa. I have a question about mag box clearance. With the new stock, when I originally fit everything, I noticed it was pinching the box and the rear screw came up a couple threads higher then it did in the Hogue. This caused the rear action bolt to interfere with the bLot when cycling. I addressed this by removing 1/8” off the rear action bolt and the same off the box. Holding the rifle at one o’clock and loosening the front action screw the front of barrel raised with the box in. Without the box it doesn’t. I removed material off the box until I could loosen the front screw without it changing the position of the barrel. I can now slide a .010 feeler gauge all the way around the box and the bottom metal. What amount of clearance should the box have? When I put it back into the Hogue, I could just wiggle it. Thank you guys for the help. I’m new to this. |
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@ 09:55 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingHi Brandon. Using common-sense, you identified a problem and rectified it. When I reassemble a Howa with standard bottom metal, first I place the bottom metal in the stock, hold it there (with the stock upright and parallel to earth), then seat the mag-box into the bottom metal. Then I place the barreled action on top. The reason is, if you seat the mag-box into the action first and place it into the stock, when you position the bottom metal the mag-box might not seat properly into the very-fine recess in the bottom metal. Make sure the mag-box isn’t pinched after torquing the action screws. |
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@ 10:29 am (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerRe: Howa BeddingWith everything torqued down, I have .010 clearance around the box and the lip on the bottom metal that the box bottoms out on. I just kept taking a very small amount off and putting it back together until when torqued it I can still wiggle it. I didn’t think to put a feeler gauge on it in the Hogue, but it’s really close to the clearance it had. I didn’t know if there was a standard measurement for clearance or if you get it to the point that it’s not pinched, but isn’t going to fall away from the action and call it good. I appreciate you guys being willing to share your knowledge. |
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@ 11:48 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingThere’s no spec on the clearance. You’re not adjusting valves. Your common sense is fine. |
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@ 04:29 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Howa BeddingInfo for your Boyd's-Howa Brandonshorting mag box= reduced space in mag. Will the bolt still close over full mag ie room for cartridges to move down to clear bolt? Does the hinge plate bottom out on stock when closed. Increased effort to close. Metal to low needs some clearance. Do the action screws feel springy to torque. Ends of plate bowing to bottom out on laminate. Or laminate yielding (may happen over time, watch for that) When bedding these l also bed the bottom metal to set the final clearances & heights and stop any give in the laminate caused by small footprint of metal. (along with S/S pillars). I aim for similar to original clearance, parallel with action at approximately 1mm. Good luck, hope it shoots well |
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@ 04:51 pm (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerRe: Howa BeddingThank you Martin. The bolt still closes easily over four rounds. Everything looks flush at this point and the door opens and closes as well as it did in the Hogue. I had read somewhere (probably this forum) about bending the bottom medal due to the aftermarket stocks not being the ideal dimensions and binding. It doesn’t appear that I damaged anything. I think bedding the bottom metal sounds like a good idea. Do you have any pictures of the process? Do you bed just under the action screws or the length of it? I don’t have a mm of clearance, but with bedding it, I’m sure could get there without sanding the box any shorter. Thank you again |
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@ 10:25 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Howa BeddingSounds like your height and mag box space is all ok. Room for full mag plus and plate opens & closes easily with no binding. If screws do not feel springy when tightened all is good.Don't get to concerned as long as the mag box has clearance, it should rattle like before or at least move both ends. If you need to bed the B/M send Nathan a message, he will explain it better than me. All you are doing is increasing the footprint of the seat (spreading load area) and setting the height. Think house stump footings using the same basic techniques as action bedding. |
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@ 04:12 am (GMT) |
Brandon WarnerRe: Howa BeddingThanks again for the advice. |
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@ 09:26 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingIf the vertical dimension of the stock at the action screws is such that the removal of material from the mag-box won’t provide enough clearance to avoid pinching it (without inhibiting feeding, as Mary says) I’d consider a couple washers between the B/M and the pillars (or stock material, in the absence of pillars). That’s where all the load is. Bedding under the rest of the B/M would be purely cosmetic, to fill the gap. |
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@ 01:46 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Howa BeddingYou can only bed under the seat areas Scott the rest of the Boyds bottom metal well is open for trigger & mag box.It's in no way cosmetic because it cannot be seen unless dismantled. Increasing the footprint is simply allowing the epoxy to have a larger area to act on the laminate. Under cutting the seat not cutting out the entire corner of the well. A big plus if no pillars are fitted or working on an old timber stock that has soft timber. Same technique should be applied around the tang and recoil boss on these stocks also top lip of the stock if you want the epoxy mostly hidden, leaving a timber edge almost contacting the action. No thin edges to break out. |
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@ 07:16 pm (GMT) |
Jon ShortRe: Howa BeddingScott,Be careful when you assembvle your rifle ;-) Jon |
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@ 03:52 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingThanks, Marty. I think I get it, if the B/M is rigid enough along its length to distribute the force of screws (which at 55 in. lbs. is considerable). |
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@ 05:02 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingOh, hi Jon. I didn’t see your last post when I was replying to Marty. Yeah, you’re right, especially if you’ve got an “old timber stock,” as Marty said, or even a laminate. 55 in. lbs. might be a tad aggressive, for instance. I had a situation where I forgot to check the mag box for pinching after reassembly, resulting in a wasted range day. I carry one of these mini-torque wrenches when hunting, and obsessively check the action screws, which seem to work loose.https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JW55LN3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 |
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@ 10:42 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Howa BeddingOnce l started bedding or epoxying the seats on all my timber/laminate builds l have never had a problem with torqueing the screws or loosening.Always seemed to have a slightly soft or springy take up. Have had multiple people comment on work ups l have done for them how solid the screws feel now. Still using weak Loctite and Nathans suggested torque specs. My Rem BDL & 22lr's had a very noticeable change, later on getting redone with pillars as well. |
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@ 12:07 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Howa BeddingHi, Marty. You cautioned Brandon earlier to be mindful of stock-material compression, even with laminate, which sounded like good advice to me. Pillars would, of course, preclude that problem. I don’t use blue Loctite on action screws, but it would certainly prevent the screws moving any. I haven’t seen it discussed, relative to action screws, but, in automotive applications, torque-specs are generally given for dry threads, as lubricant on the threads will change the forces being applied, and would probably prevent Loctite from adhering. Maybe it was the day I had that mag-box pinched at the range that I noticed the action screws seemed to have crept out. That’s when I bought the mini-torque-wrench . . . didn't feel like carrying a fat wrench around when hunting. Ever since, I always double-check them before I go out in the woods . . . a tad anal, perhaps! |
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