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> M700 5R 308
M700 5R 308
@ 08:11 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesHi Nathen,just put deposit on 5R today $1640 au now just would like your opinion on my thoughts please, the 5r has 24in barrel hs precision stock now my thinking is this the MODEL 700 varmint sf 308 is $1330 au trash the stock and get hs precision stock approx $480 au price now totals $1810 au with 26 in barrel would the extra two inches be worth the extra $170 and the hassel of getting the stock. Would it perform better than the R5 other than a few extra FPS. Cheers. |
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@ 10:14 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308Hi Nathan.Have decided to go with the R5 so disregard last post I think it would serve me well as a dual purpose rifle be easier to carry around with shorter barrel. Now not trying to get ahead of myself just getting stuff together ready for reloading so I already have 178 Amax projectiles and 2208 noticed in ADI manual it lists 175gr and 180gr so Im guessing that I could use the 180gr data. Both 175gr and 180gr data listed with 2208 both have their loads listed as 45gr compressed as max loads, 175gr-2690 fps 180gr2660 fps with 24in barrel. My 8th edition hornady manual lists 178amax 43.2gr varget/2208 as max load at 2500fps with 22in barrel, also see 208 amax listed with varget/2208 40gr max at 2300 fps. Which load data do you recommend I use for best results and I noticed the R5 has 11.25 twist rate would that assist the use of the 208 amax. I will finish off with best magnification im guessing I wouldnt need another 5.5x22x56 or 50 nxs or would I. Cheers. |
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@ 11:49 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: M700 5R 308Hi Trevor, I will answer your first post as others will be wanting to know.The R5 shows merit in NZ type conditions where high rainfall and corrosive salts from coastal winds can ruin rife barrels in the space of one hunting trip (several days in the field). For an Australian shooter, although most of the population do live near the coast, weather conditions are always milder than NZ, lessening the need for Stainless steel. Even the monsoon in the top end is not generally immensely hard on barrel steels unless cleaning is left for extended periods after returning from the field. Of course I would recommend stainless for a truck/station gun used in the top end as I dare say rifle cleaning is a once a year job for many. Corrosion is to me the major consideration. Twist rate is secondary to me when considering the .308, but the twist rate you have really is a good one for the .308, allowing you to utilize a wide range of bullet weights. Aside from all of that, fit and finsih of the R5 metal work is higher than the cheaper Remingtons, its very subtle but its there. The ADI data is a bit off the mark. To quote Darryl Kerrigon (Michael Caton) in 'The castle'- they're dreamin. 46gr 2208/Varget yields approximately 2560fps in the R5. If experimenting with 2208, you'll want to start at 45 grains and go up from there. Set your cartridge COAL at 71mm. Test until you see max pressure signs, then back off accordingly. You may hit max compression before you reach max pressures. Please let us know how you get on. I usually use 2206H in the .308 it is more responsive, the bulk density is about perfect, accuracy is often better than with 2208 due to the ability to obtain the 'high pressure sweet spot'. A lot of shooters have yet to cotton on to this, still using low charges of Varget with rifles somewhat underloaded (utilizing the low pressure sweet spot). I also generally use the 168 grain bullet to try and strike a balance between bullet weight and velocity though for Red/Mule sized deer, the 178gr bullet is a better performer. However please continue with what you are doing, just work on an optimum load, first with 2208 and if this does not work, then switch to 2206H. 2560fps is a good goal velocity to work on with the 178gr bullet. This is realistic as far as optimum accuracy goes. If you achieve higher velocities, it will be due to the long barrel length (.308's usually only need 20" barrels to get up to full speed) combined with the medium/slow burn rate of 2208. It is something to atleast hope for. Please share your results once you have them, there will be other R5 shooters who will benefit from this. Do not shoot the rifle until you have tested the bedding block/ bedding fit. To do this- release the floor plate so that the mag spring is released. Hold the rifle so that the muzzle is at the 1oclock position. Uncrew the front action screw one or two turns and observe whether the barrel tries to climb out of the forend. If it does, the rifle needs bedding- or at the very least, relieving of the ali at the bolt handle cut out. We can address this later if need be. |
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@ 01:12 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308Hi Nathan.Thanks for the reply may go straight with 2206H,If you say its better thats good enough for me mate. I was going to get the rifle bedded and change trigger as you recommended with the rummy get them both done at the same time as it seems Iwill be picking up both rifles at the same rime was going to break barrels in first but may wait until after they have been done. Anyway Iget back to you later on how things go and once again thank you for your advice I do appreciate your help. Cheers. |
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@ 03:35 pm (GMT) |
Richard BaalhamRe: M700 5R 308It would be great to know how Trevor got on with his 5R. I have been getting great accuracy at 100M with mine using factory Belmont 155 Scenar loads; 'out of the box' rifle with cheap factory ammo gives me 0.5MOA...However, since I want to start reloading and also to use the rifle for hunting I need a hunting projectile. I have had been told that the 168 Amax or 165 SST's will provide reach and impact on game and work well with the R5. Googling for what other R5 owners are using and I see that 175-178 gn projectiles are quite a favourite with some claims that the rifle was developed to favour this weight of projectile. So before I go and spend my money on a load of stuff that may have been tried by other people already...... any adecdotes? |
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@ 05:11 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: M700 5R 308Hi Richard, the R5 barrel of the M24 sniper rifle is designed to be used with the 175gr Sierra MatchKing. That said, the 1:11 twist works well with many bullet weights. I have been able to get a consistent .250" with the 168gr A-Max in the most recent R5 I tricked up which I believe was from the same batch as your rifle.I answered a similar question today in the long range hunting thread for Matt Reid regarding a decision over which A-max to use for long range work. Have a read and see if it helps. |
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@ 05:28 pm (GMT) |
Richard BaalhamRe: M700 5R 308thanks Nathan.Just putting a shopping list together for reloading gear.... as a recipe I am going to start with 43.5 grains of 2206H, 168gr Amax and Federal 210 primers. |
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@ 07:21 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: M700 5R 308Hi Richard, please do not take one load to the range. For all you know, that load may negatively effect barrel harmonics. Use incremental load development.Using U.S.A manufactured brass (not Belmont) Fouler and sighters 42.5gr x 2-4 shots (as needed) 42.5 x3 43 x 3 43.5 x 3 44 x 3 44.5 x 3 max. Work up carefully, watching for pressure signs. If using Belmont cases, back all test loads off by 1.5 grains to correct for heavy walled brass (eg 41 to 43 grains test range). |
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@ 03:14 pm (GMT) |
Richard BaalhamRe: M700 5R 308thnaks once again Nathan.Is the only problem with Belmont brass due to heavy walls and case capacity or is there another reason to avoid reloading with Belmont? I have a box full of the stuff and it would be a shame to waste it.... I also have some Federal cases saved up if that would be a better option. |
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@ 04:14 pm (GMT) |
Matt ReidRe: M700 5R 308Just to chip in my 2c, I would grab some Win brass, its cheap enough, and don't look back. I have messed around with Federal, and Norma more recently and have gone back to Win. I found with the Norma, case ´growth´ was quite dramatic and it was prone to showing ejector marks on low pressure (low velocity) loads. I had to back off 1 gn to achieve the same velocity as I would in Win brass.The bulk of the load data I have seen uses Win brass, so makes life a lot easier when using data for comparison. If you are into getting your head around optimum charge weight theory (search OCW- Dan Newberry), you will find he recommends either Win or Lapua brass. Cheers, Matt |
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@ 07:31 am (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308Hi guys,havnt had a chance to do any load data been unwell for some time but on the mend pick up me nxs scope this week for the milspec so hope to get to it soon. So im interested in what you guys come up with as Im to wondering wether to go with the 168 or the 178 amax have even considered having a play around with the 208 just out of curiosity. I will let you know how I get on I have got 4 rifles on the go think best I just focus on one at a time. Cheers |
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@ 03:14 pm (GMT) |
Matt ReidRe: M700 5R 308Hi Trevor,I asked pretty much the same question the other day in the precision and long range section of the forum, see ´amax decision´ thread. I have sometimes pondered using the 208s as well, although thinking the mv might be getting a bit low to be practical. Matt |
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@ 10:12 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: M700 5R 308Hi Richard, Belmont are very proud of the brass they have sourced from Indonesia. As you have already seen, it is capable of great accuracy. nevertheless, for continued reloading, I think Belmont especially would suggest a higher quality brass such as the Lapua brand which they are agents for.In the .308, the brands I have enjoyed using the most include: Winchester, Hornady and Lapua in no particular order. Matt covered the reasons with crystal clarity. Case capacities and behavior are similar between all three brands. Buy one brand and stick with it. Hope you are OK Trevor. |
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@ 11:40 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308H Nathan,yes on the mend thanks for asking its good to be on my feet again, hope to get back at it soon. Cheers Matt for the directions that answered my thoughts for me. Oh buy the way Nathan the rum shoots well even with factory 200gr feds that I used in the break in period just need to get my handloads down the range ME LIKE that rum mate. Cheers |
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@ 04:59 am (GMT) |
AidanRe: M700 5R 308Hi thereIve got a 5r and have used the 208amax with good results, laupua brass,fed 210m,42gr varget,2.825coal@2440fps. I used this load when i first brought the rifle,accuracy was really good and shot red deer from 50yds to 630yds with awesome terminal performance.I have gone back to using 168amax@2750fps and 155amax@2860fps due to reduction in recoil and better accuracy making longer range shooting much more accurate for myself,I feel that the 208's are just on the edge of being stable out of the 11.25 barrel due to abit of inconsistancy on some days when ive been shooting parer with them.Have yet to shoot a deer with the 168/155 loads so cannot comment on terminal performance with them. |
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@ 10:08 am (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308Hi AidanThanks for that info may give that a go later im going to play with the 168 and 178 for awhile when my scope turns up they sent the wrong one so have to wait some more. What load you using for the 168amax. Cheers Trevor. |
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@ 09:19 pm (GMT) |
Aidan O'NeillRe: M700 5R 308Lapua,F210M,46gr varget,2.8coal for the 168's,pretty good accuracy wise and have the same point of impact as the 155 load.I want to try using CFE223,2206 or some SUPERFORMANCE powders to see if i can get any improvements in velocity or accuracy but i think the superformance stuff is abit hard to come by i think.What scope do you have on yours? |
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@ 11:07 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308HiThanks for the info Aidan im using rem brass at the moment would I have to reduce that load a bit,was thinking of going with lapua brass but rather expensive to loose in the bush when hunting. Im putting 5.5-22 nxs nightforce on my 5r I have one on my 300 rum aswell shuold already have it but they sent me the wrong one. The weight is not an issue for me as Im focusing on longrange do to injuries less walking. If I have to walk around I use my sako a7 22.250 for that its light and accurrate 60gr projectiles for the goats. Cheers Trevor |
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@ 02:49 am (GMT) |
Aidan O'NeillRe: M700 5R 308That load is 2gr over book max in relation to hornady 8th ed and listed as max in relation to my LEE reloading data.Im not that clued up on the different case type capacities,in saying that i would start by working up your load by the book to be on the safe side,would definatly like to hear how you get on for a comparison though.That scope will be awesome,i couldnt afford a NF so i put a 4.4-14 mk4 on mine.The scope/rifle are pretty heavy but its easy to get used too,to me its a dream to shoot,i used to have a 22-250 when i first started shooting deer,it was a neat rifle,sort of have an ich to buy another one day. |
@ 11:01 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308gday nathan,went for my first outing at the range this morning crap conditions but needed some trigger time. Now I have discovered its hard to find a bad load in this rifle which causes the problem which do I pick, dont get me wrong the groups that I shot none were the golden load conditions didnt allow for this to happen. Never the less no group went over 3/4 of an inch so with the last rounds of each load weight I ran through the magneto speed crono to test it out some more and get some idea of what the loads were doing. 2206h col 2.800 168 amax rem virgin brass fed 210 primer. 42.5 -2666 43 -2702 43.5 -2739 44 -2774 44.5 -2804 As suggested by you 2700 would be a good velocity rather than go through it all again would it be counter productive to focus just on the loads around in the 2700 area. As im at that velocity I think no need to push on I have no pressure sighns so alls good. Seems 44 -44.5 is the tightest is this around the figure you have found in loading for the 5r Iwill try smaller incremants around these charges next outing maybe night time got ok from the farmer to go ahead with that plan. Cheers Trev. |
@ 06:26 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: M700 5R 308Hi Trev, I find that in tight head space rifles, the sweet spot is usually around 43-43.5gr while in loose rifles (M700 Varmint and Tactical), the sweet spot is quite often up around 44-44.5 grains 2206H. So as you can imagine, I have to let the rifle do the talking.While searching for accurate loads, if the rifle is to be used at longer ranges, its important to look at extreme spread. So if you can't choose between two accurate loads, narrow it down to the lowest ES. You will need to retest loads after the cases have been reloaded, just to see the differences between new brass and sized brass, just to double check. And, as you say, you can work up in .2gr increments at this stage if you want to. Not many .308 rifles will give 2800fps with the 168gr A-max. If your rifle is accurate at this charge rate, although it is a pain, keep reloading the same three cases a few times to check for primer pocket expansion (this is just a very simple way to observe pressures). You can also do some of this during the heat of the day just to make sure there is no risk of pressure spikes. That will give you all the info you need. Alternatively, you can sit on 2700fps if you prefer. It is entirely your call. |
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@ 08:15 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308Gday Nathen,Thanks for the reply after reading went back and had a look at targets and there is a ditinct sweet spot at the 43.5 charge and between44 and 44.5 so as stated before I will play around there and look for a good e.s and at 200 -300 yrds this time. Now another question knowing that the rifling in the 5r is renowned for less fouling after time so I have read while doimg barrel break in I was not getting much copper. So after about 15 rounds of shoot and clean I put 30 rounds through the rifle letting cool between strings of three rounds no being a new barrel one would expect a reasonable amount of copper. But when home gave barrel a clean and could only get a slight colouring on the patch so did again no copper it seems to easy to me is this normal, the gunsmith has checked the whole rifle over when doing trigger and bedding all was good nothing untoward. Cheers Trev. |
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@ 09:14 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: M700 5R 308That's fairly good Trev. In this instance, you'll need to avoid all abrasives otherwise you could make the bore too smooth. Your barrel is currently in peak conddition but this condition could easily be ruined if the bore is allowed to get too smooth. So you actually have to be a bit more careful with this bore than say an SPS bore.Once every few months you can give the throat a polish with JB's or Autosol, just to keep the pores of the steel closed in this heat affected area, but you'll need to try and keep the pastes away from the rest of the bore. Best bet would be to use aerosol brake cleaner on a rag (or even meths) after the throat polish, then clean the rest of the bore. You may find Hoppes is the only product you need to clean this rifle on a week to week basis with the occasional swab with boretech. Store the rifle with CRC long life in the bore as opposed to Hoppe's unless you want the harsher solvent action of the Hoppes to work over time. I am going to put very detailed info regarding bore finishes into an upcoming book, far more in depth than the break in article- but still from a practical stand point, laymans terms etc. |
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@ 10:12 pm (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308Thanks again Nathen and your reply was along the same as my thoughts less agressive solvent.I did give the throat and bore a light polishing with autosol before breaking barrel in. I always wash throat and bore with metho after clean and patch dry then light lube with balistol then carry on shooting. Will be ordering your new books soon its on the got to do list just getting over xmas expenses first. Cheers. Trev. |
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@ 04:33 am (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: M700 5R 308Gday guys,More load development today mirage was shocking but bugger all wind 6kph max over my right shoulder best day for ages shame it wasnt cloudy. 168amax rem brass 1x fired fed 210 2206h. oal 2-810 43.6gr. Best group today 0.325 but its a dead staight vertical string as there is many variables that cause this at this stage just want to focus on the loadvariables,Im not dismissing me the shooter,breathing/technique etc. I shot this load 3x3rounds all groups the same so would you recommend, 1-seating depth 2-powder 3-necktension 3-primer. Would be interested in some of your thoughts. As far as rifle its been bedded,lugs lapped rifle basix trigger 1.4lb so Im disregarding it as an issue may try action screw tension currently 45in lb. Cheers Trev. |
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@ 06:51 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: M700 5R 308Hi Trev, I usually seat to 2.795 to ensure optimum concentricity. If you hang out past this measurement, you may also end up with a brass donut inside the case necks where the bullet is seated. I have not not got my verniers here at the moment but I think 2.810 might be out just a tad too far.Keep an eye on ES. If the extreme spread (velocity) is high (say over 20fps), it may pay to look at neck tension as a means to minimize ES and maybe eliminate the stringing. But if the ES is low and the rifle is stringing, it may just be the harmonics. Other than that, sounds like things are OK. If you can stay under .4" consistently, the rifle will serve you very well, even if the shots are strung if the ES is low. A competitive shooter may ask for more but you have to make a call as to how far you want to take it. Make sure you are doing range testing over sand bags and not a bipod. If using a bipod, therein lies your answer to the issue of stringing. |
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