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> 7x57 loads for barnes bullets
7x57 loads for barnes bullets
@ 01:04 pm (GMT) |
mark korteI was hoping someone could suggest a load for 7x57 using IMR 4064 and Barnes TSX boattails in 150 gr or 160 gr. My rifle is a Ruger #1a. I am concerned about the all copper bullets opening sufficiently on elk sized game at 200 yards and under. |
Replies
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@ 07:54 pm (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi Nathan -I read your COAL article and did the suggested measurements. The max COAL for my 7x57 ruger #1 is 3.182. Using your suggestion of a 40 thousand jump for Barnes bullets I come up with 3.142. This seemed much too long, so I went with the concentricity suggestion photo of seating the bullet with the top of the boat tail just at the base of the cartridge neck. This gave me a COAL of 2.956. The reloading manual for Barnes lists a COAL of 2.940. Should I just go ahead and stick with the manual suggestion? This with 140 grn TSX BT. Thanks for your patience! mark |
@ 03:55 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi mark, sorry for the late reply. You are on the right track Mark. 16 thou will account for the differences from bullet to bullet and batch to batch. Thats fine, stick with what you are doing.By the by, a U.S hunter contacted me yesterday. He is shooting a fancy grade 7mm Practical and has tested the 120gr TTSX up to 3800fps. I generally prefer a heavier and softer bullet for both optimum barrel life and optimum long range performance, but this rifle will not be used for truly long ranges and will not be used heavily. So I think this could all come together quite well and extract excellent performance from the homogenous bullet. Pretty fast huh. |
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@ 12:01 pm (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsThanks for all your insight and help Nathan. I was going to try the 120 grn as well, but I can't seem to find anything below 140 at the few resources I have in this remote area. One guy (who supposedly has "tons of experience" with Barnes) even tried to tell me the 120 would be like shooting an elk with a .243. |
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@ 12:43 pm (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsNathan - One last question (I hope!) If I am going to the .120 TTSX and starting at 44 grns, working upwards as you earlier suggested, what would my top end be safety-wise? Would the cutoff still be around 46 grns? Thanks again - Mark |
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@ 04:06 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi Mark, I have no way of knowing where the safe cut off point is.Make up your test loads to 47 grains and test fire, watching for pressure signs. Observe the rear of the case and look for scuff marks / shiny extractor marks- near max. Observe the primers to see if the edges are flatteing out- max. Observe the bolt lift, if it is sticky, you have hit maximum. For all I know, near max for your rifle could be very high. The only way to find out is to test the rifle with small batches of ammo. Once you hit near max or max, you will know the limits of the rifle. Any ammo that is loaded beyond this point will need to be pulled rather than test fired. I am currently writing about all of this for my next book on reloading- hopefully due out Dec 1 or thereabouts. One of our other forum members is playing with his lot of Barnes bullets at the moment- 130 grain bullets in the .30-06. We are up to 5 grains above book max now I think. All testing done tentatively, working up above book max very carefully, watching for pressure signs- 2 or 3 range trips working up a bit more each time to establish where near maximum might be, observing accuracy sweet spots along the way. |
@ 05:30 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsG'day allAs Nathan said, I'm 4.5gns over ADI max @ 3250fps with 130gn ttsx Barnes, ar2208, Lapua cases in my 30-06, 24” barrel. I have them seated so the top of the first band is level with the end of the neck, that puts me 52th off the lands in my rifle. Bolt lift is good, primer has rounded edges with a very small hardly noticeable cratered edge around the firing pin hole (federal GM primer). The last 1/2gn increase gave me an extra 33fps with 10fps variation over 3 shots. The accuracy has been great .2’s most loads up to 7/8” at 4gns over, improving again at 4.5gns over . I’m tipping the next increase will tighten the group up again. I’ll check my max loads again when the weather gets hot in a couple of months. My Barrel was hand lapped by Neville Madden at Maddco barrels, the gunsmith work done by RTM rifles with a beautiful clean cut chamber in a Remington 700 action. I’m not a fan of Barnes unless you can get an impact velocity above 2500fps. I have 200 130gn pills so thought I’d use them up. I’ll pull the tips off some and see what the difference it makes. Bob ps. In a Ruger #1 it might pay to use a tough primer like Remington. If you get any cratering the design of the action can make them hard to extract. |
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@ 09:58 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsGuys -Thanks again. Last night I loaded some 120 grn ttsx with 44 grns 4064 and could not believe the difference it made in the groups - I have never seen that rifle print so well. I do not have any access to a chronograph, so my question concerns impact velocities. From what I can gather on the 120 grn tsx (as opposed to the ttsx that I am using) this load is probably leaving the muzzle at around 2900 fps. Does anyone out there have a guess (or a real answer!) to what my impact velocity would be at 200 yards? The load is grouping so well that I really don't want to change anything if I don't have to. Thanks so much! |
@ 04:16 pm (GMT) |
chris murphyRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletshi Mark if you don't have chrony but have all other info BC, Weight etc you can work out speed with a ballistic calculator. http://www.gseven.com/ballistic-program type in the info you do know and for speed have an educated guess going off load data. it will give you a drop chart to use, test that out to 4-500 yrd and take note of how far off the drop chart is type that into the calculator and it will give you actual speed. GUNWERKS have a clip on youtube of it ill find it and put up a link. |
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@ 04:27 pm (GMT) |
chris murphyRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsthis is the clip he explains better than me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_ohKuUElQ |
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@ 04:32 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi Mark, I would still prefer it if you would work up loads and find out what the rifle is capable of. With some bullet designs, the extra velocity makes little difference but with the Barnes, extra velocity can be very useful.Its good to know that your current load will get the job done- nice and accurate, a fairly good speed. Knowing this, you should be able to proceed with further load experimentation without the stress of having to find a good load. So why not. If you are going to be shooting out to 300 yards or so, it can pay to sight in 3" high at 100 yards. If your shooting is a bit closer, you can sight 2" high at 100 yards. Chris has offered good advice as far as calculations go. You can for example, use your 2900fps estimation, then plug this in with a 3" high setting at 100 yards, then copy the predicted trajectory. I the field, you make comparisons. If the rifle shoots a touch flatter, your velocities are faster etc. |
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@ 04:37 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi MarkAt 200yds impact should be about 2400fps. Bob |
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@ 05:25 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsGot to remember, the point of going to a 120gr bullet was to drive it as fast as possible. Fronatl area was the same as the 140gr bullet, the only difference in this instance being the SD- level of penetration (which should be ample). There is a possibility that the load may only be doing 2850fps- we do not know at this stage. And as Bob points out, at 2900fps, you are down to 2400fps at 200 yards. So if possible, keep working up. |
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@ 06:03 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsG'day ChrisThanks for that ballistics link mate, looks interesting. The drops are slightly different to shooter. I'll test them out in a couple of weeks. Bob |
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@ 04:12 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi MarkI found my old records for my 7x57 Ruger no 1 120gn Barnes. I was using 47gns of 4064 = 3000fps. I think you’ll find 44gns will be close to 2800fps brings you back to 2250fps Cheers Bob |
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@ 05:34 pm (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsThanks Bob - that's valuable info. I'm curious - what was your COAL with that load? It seems like I would have to seat the bullet a little further out than the recommended 2940 with that much powder - not a problem in that rifle I know. |
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@ 06:17 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsG'day MarkI haven't got OA length written down, after I work out my seating depth I record the OA length of my seating die for future reference. Most 7x57 rifles have long throats, I doubt if you could get anywhere near the lands with a 120gn pill. I seat them as far out as possible, case neck level with the top of the first band for concentricity. The 7mm, 120gn Barnes @ 3000fps with punch straight through a big Red Deer at 200yds and if you hit them a bit high forward shoulder they’ll drop on the spot, otherwise they’ll run till they bleed out like a bow shot. Let us know how you go with it. Bob |
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@ 03:20 pm (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsThanks Bob - Do you mean the first ring up from the base of the bullet or the top ring nearest the point of the bullet?As for aiming points - Have you tried a full-on shoulder or double shoulder hold to anchor them quicker? |
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@ 05:00 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi MarkThe top of the first ring from the bottom, so its seated as far forward but enough to support the 120gn projectile. From side on, I hit them 1”in front of the front leg half way up the chest or a bit higher. My Dad called it the Hilar shot, Deer drop instantly. I thought Dad invented the name “Hilar” but I Googled it and there it was http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/f12/neckshot-placement-9687/index5.html Bob |
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@ 01:11 pm (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi Guys - I recieved this reply from Barnes concerning my question about muzzle velocity of 120 grn TTSX and 44 grns 4064: "I’d suggest a muzzle velocity of about 2875fps with a 24” barrel and a muzzle velocity of about 2800fps with your shorter 22” barrel. The 120gr TTSX is tested down to 2000fps in our water tank. This should get you beyond about 350yds." They agree with velocity Bob's numbers but their low ball on expansion velocities is well below what you guys are seeing in your experience. Is the water test a valid comparison of what the bullet does with flesh and bone? mark |
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@ 04:43 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi MarkI know water is very hard. I would think water would open up a Barnes at a lower velocity than flesh would? But I’m only guessing. From my experience with Barnes, once impact velocity is below 2600fps an animal won’t drop within a few yds unless shot placement is spot on (re Hilar shot, spine or neck vertebrae). The projectile will still completely penetrate but they’ll bleed out like if shot with an arrow after running 50-100yds Bob |
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@ 05:27 pm (GMT) |
chris murphyRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHi guys have a look at these two clips on YouTube. "Barnes With Guns & Gear LRX" And"140gr TTSX bullet performance issues on Fallow Doe hit twice by a 7mm-08" |
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@ 05:36 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsYes- the Barnes will expand at lower velocities but that has no bearing on killing power. Here we get into the entire copper bullet issue again. These bullets may expand at low velocities but cannot produce a disproportionate to caliber wound because the energy transfer is minimal without bullet weight loss. The result can be slow bleeding if the CNS is not struck directly. Much earlier, you pushed the point that you wanted to be environmentally conscious and I pretty much said that this is all very well- but that you have to take the game animal into account. You seemed on board with this and we discussed using velocity as an aid to killing with this type of bullet. Now you are emailing to and fro and second guessing the advice given based on intensive field research. The 120 grain bullet was suggested for increased velocity. Instead, you want to run the 120 grain bullet at the same speeds as a 140 grain bullet. If you want to run a mild load- go for it. Your options with a mild load: Keep ranges short to moderate. Select shot placement in autonomic plexus. Pass up shots that don't allow for select shot placement or where wind drift may cause errors. Or: Use a lead core bullet if opting for mild loads. I very much dislike having to take this tone Mark but you need to try to get your head around this. Possibly my fault for not directing you to relevant info. There are parts of the picture you are not understanding- particularly disproportionate to caliber wounding versus proportionate to expanded caliber wounding. You should be able to find info on this in the game killing section of the KB with more in depth info in my second book. OK, I hope this helps a bit more. |
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@ 05:42 pm (GMT) |
mark korteRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsThanks. Everything I'm hearing leads me to believe that their claim of impact velocities of 2000fps is too slow from a real world perspective. Water tank tests seem a poor substitute for real world experience.Here is a recent update pertaining to lead poisoning issues with scavengers in California and Utah. http://kjzz.org/content/50362/condor-lead-poisoning-drops-lowest-number-2005 |
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@ 05:43 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsHey Bob, I have noted that:2600-2400fps, animals run as you suggested but internal wounding still relatively wide. Nevertheless, often have to track game unless shot in hillar zone- all as you suggest. If shot placement is far less than ideal (eg very rear of lungs / stuffed up quartering shot)- game run further as you would expect. 2400fps to 2200fps, wounding tapering off, animals can run further in absence of hillar / autonomic plexus shot. Below 2200fps, fully reliant on hillar / CNS. Wind drift a major problem. |
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@ 05:58 pm (GMT) |
chris murphyRe: 7x57 loads for barnes bulletsMark as Nathan said about disproportionate to caliber wounding the bullet in the clip they tested on gel barely opened up wider than the body of the bullet, this would cause I pin hole and do stuff all and in the interest of the environment making animals suffer is worse than a bit of lead in my opinion. |
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