@ 03:49 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanSome loads listed here are over the recommended maximum. Do not use these loads in your firearm. Always start 10% below maximum and work up, looking for conditions indicating maximum allowable pressure for your firearm.This is actually for two days at the range. I needed to start over with three of my rifles; a re-bedded .338, a heavy fouling 45-70Govt., and a newly converted/reconditioned 30-'06. The previous loads for the .338 would consistently group under .5MOA, but I had never done a chrony test for ES. I had also used book value for the reloads, so never really knew where I stood in relation to allowable pressure. Off to the range with twelve rounds, RL-19 (a new powder for me), with the max load 4.5 grains over book. The Ruger ate these like a late night snack. Back to the loading bench. With the highest powder charge from that day, the RL-19 was compressed to the point where I could feel it when seating the bullet. I couldn't get more into the case without heavily compressing the charge. A quick volume test with IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 showed that the book max would give me a little more leeway in volume. Using the IMR4350, I started at 66.5grs (0.9grs less than the previously known accurate load), and went up to 73grs. in half grain increments. It turns out that 71.5grs. of IMR4350 is as far as the Ruger will go, showing the first signs of pressure, ie, not stiff, but a definite resistance in bolt lift. The 45-70 Govt. would show heavy fouling after the first shot in the left barrel, and none in the right. So using Nathan's procedures, polished the chamber/throat area and reduced the fouling to about 25% of what it was before. Unfortunately, this was a long process and not really what I wanted to be doing, so I left it as it was to finish another day. The 30-'06 was a totally unknown rifle, and loads were made up with Win 760, 165 gr. BTSP. Starting at 53.2gr and upwards to 56.7gr. A happy coincidence that the highest load was also the one that showed the first sign of pressure. A good place to stop. Again, back to the loading bench to develop the hunting loads. Unfortunately, at the range yesterday, the wind was so bad that there really was no point in trying to test and zero the hunting loads. Two good sessions, proving what needed to be known: maximum loads for both hunters, and some much needed shooting practice. It turns out that not shooting for extended periods is detrimental to trigger control and general familiarity with your rifle. It felt good to be back at the range and to be able to shoot once again. |
@ 11:11 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Range ReportGood to hear Paul, good to know the full measure of a rifle, exploring its potential thoroughly, its safe limits and so forth. Many hunters never find out just what their rifles are capable of.Might pay to test your W760 load again in warm or changeable weather. I find this powder is very temp sensitive. Will pay to confirm whether the sweet spot stays the same. RE can be a bit temp sensitive too, but not to this extent. I have seen an easy 100fps change from cool morning to warm noon in the .30-06 with W760. It does feel good to get back to the range. |
@ 03:59 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Range ReportThe weather finally co-operated, so off to the range we go.Someone once said that even a bad day at the range was better than a good day at work. But what happens when the range is your office? It actually wasn't all that bad, a little disappointing, but I'm sure I'll survive. The main reason for this trip was to break in and develop a pressure maximum for the 6mm (.243Win). I wasn't sure if I had to follow the manufacturer's break in for warranty, or use Nathan's method for simplicity/reality. I used both. The maker's method with Nathan's knowledge and common sense would be the way to go. Didn't even make it that far, never made it past the fourth round down the tube. For a break-in/initial load, I went light and fast. With brand new Winchester brass, IMR4064 @ 38.5gr., Hornady 58gr V-Max, book says 3300fps. Good enough for me. Did all the usual brass prep and checked each case in the chamber after sizing. Each case felt good, slight "feel" to the bolt on closing. Perfect! Ready to rock! Wrong. First round...eyes closed...head turned as far away as I could without looking like Linda Blair.... not really, but a little apprehensive with an unknown rifle. Touched it off and found I still had all my fingers and I could see them. Fired case looked good. Second round same thing. Third round....hmmm....that bolt felt a little weird....brass looks ok....primer looks good.....I wonder why? Pulled the bolt and ran a swab into the chamber just in case I picked up some dirt somewhere.....nothing. Maybe it was just me. Chambered number four, the usual "feel" to the bolt on closing, nothing out of the ordinary. Touched it off and wham! Felt that! I thought I had just fired my .338...something wrong here I says to myself. Better check that case carefully. But first I have to get it out of the rifle. Why won't the bolt lift? Did I put the safety on without realising it? Nope. Still can't get the bolt up. Stood up and tried again...won't budge. Off comes the scope (no, you don't want to use your scope for an anchor when you use the pry bar). Rifles upside down on the sandbags and pushing hard, it finally lifted, but very stiff. Had to use the brass hammer to get the bolt back. The case looked like it had been smoked in a candle. Soot traces all the way back to the web, not heavy, but visible. Never had I seen a case not seal that far back. Was it the wrong calibre? Headstamp says it's supposed to fit. Primer looks fine, nice radius, no cratering......what the hell? Pack it all up......go home. Sitting here this morning, fresh coffee, cases in hand, mic on the bench, SAAMI drawing tacked to the wall. Let's have a look. Primer still looks good under 40X. No "bright ring" ahead of web. No extractor marks, no indents from the ejector, no scratches from the bolt face. Clean the soot off, all looks good. Length is still where I put it, book minus .008". Shoulder diameter two thou under SAAMI spec, two and a half thou over unfired case. Neck diameter........what??...retry that measurement....re-zero mic...check loaded case diameter....why is the fired case the same diameter as a loaded case? What is going on here? Measured all four fired cases. Measured all loaded cases. Measured all sized, new prepped cases. Why are they all the same? Grab a box of bullets....no, grab all three. Try the 58gr, 95gr, and the 105gr in the fired cases. Nope. None go in. Interesting. I don't think I have a carbon build up problem in the neck after just three rounds (four if you count the one that stuck). The only conclusion that I can come up with is the reamer cut the chamber wrong, and that the sore cheek bone was caused by the neck not releasing the bullet until it had to. Why didn't the other three feel that way? Half a thou difference in bullet diameter maybe. Half a thou in neck thickness maybe. Maybe both in that case. Oh well, it was a nice day. |
@ 08:57 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Range ReportHi Paul.Very strange mate. I take it this was a new unfired rifle? The projectile came out of the barrel? If the neck was tight enough to grab the projectile, I would think you'd feel it when closing the bolt? The neck must be tight if a fired round is the same diameter as a loaded round. My custom rifles only have 2th clearance, the projectile wont fit in a fired case. Check the bore diameter maybe. Bob |
@ 09:59 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Range ReportHi Bob - Yes, never been shot before. And yes, four holes (all round) in the target.I was not aware you could have a neck that tight. I was always under the impression that a bullet would enter a fired case. It is probably a case of never having been exposed to serious shooting before. So before I jump to too many more assumptions, I'll have a chat with the 'smith that chambered it. Maybe it's supposed to be that way. Bore size seems to be correct. I tried a bullet in the muzzle, I don't have any cerasafe and I wasn't going to stick my calipers in there. |
@ 10:19 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Range ReportHi Paul, if a match reamer was used, it could be that tight. Basically a neck turn chamber / cases must be neck turned.More common for guys to get caught out with this when buying second hand target rifles. Interesting. |
@ 12:06 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Range ReportWill the standard pressure indicators still be valid? Or with they show up earlier due to the neck holding on? |
@ 12:57 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Range ReportQuite a bit earlier. |
@ 01:44 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Range ReportHi PaulI think your load might be too light mate. Bob |
@ 02:20 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Range ReportBob's right, thats another thing that can go wrong, if the load is too light, you see heaps of neck soot, the case does not expand and the detonation can be uneven.Odd to have this happen with 4064 but 38gr is somewhat teetering on the low fill side of things. Good spotting Bob. |
@ 03:40 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Range ReportRight! It would be the same as a overbore magnum loaded light with a slow powder.Thanks Bob. A fresh set of eyes can make a world of difference. Back to the bench.! As a side note, I just finished taking the 24 loaded rounds and chambered each one. The cases all chambered using only thumb and index finger. I blackened six cases with a sharpie and chambered them, no serious scraping. Looked through the library and found Glenn Newick's piece and re-read the neck section. Here is an excerpt: ".....The loaded round is carefully fitted to be .001" or .0015"under the dimension of the chamber. When the round is fired the brass can only expand the .001" or .0015" before it meets the chamber walls. This is enough to release the bullet. The elasticity limit of the brass neck hasn't been exceeded, it snaps back to the original dimension after the bullet has exited." "Carefully fitted" or just plain ass lucky to have it fit this way, it sure sounds like that's what's happening, plus like Bob says, the fired case will not accept a new bullet. I am going to see if I can find some cerrosafe locally and cast my chamber, just to make sure. Thanks for the help, guys. Your input is greatly appreciated. |
@ 08:15 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Range Reportwas wondering reading this if you could wrap the neck of a round with tape and see if it chambers to see tolerances or put whiteboard marker on neck and inspect?always makes interesting reading and learning these topics |
@ 08:52 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Range ReportG'day Thomas.Just measure the diameter of a fired round, it'll probably be a thou less than your chamber neck diameter |
@ 05:10 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Range Reportthank you bobill have to have measure up on few cases next time im at reloading bench its something i have never played around with i don't own a neck turner. i was going through saami specs on the 35 rem, 358 win and 35 whelen when i was designing my 35/303 reamer i notice the 35 rem had a tighter neck nothing major but a little tighter. i talked to Nathan about it and checked my brass thickness (ppu) and ended up going with the slightly tighter 35 rem dimensions to help get bit more accuracy. i know Nathan also had to tighten the neck on a few of his 358 cal reamer designs. it would be interesting experiment to see if you slowly reamed out neck bit by bit how much effect it would have on accuracy. |
@ 05:25 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Range ReportWell, Thomas, I'll let you know. I ordered an expandable reamer today to do just that. The fellow that chambered the barrel strongly suggested not to try and re-do the barrel, but to work the brass to suit. Somehow, I think it is going to be a long drawn out process. I just hope I get it figured out before I need a new barrel. |
@ 05:36 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Range ReportNathan - I keep forgetting to reply to your comment about the Win760. Yes, it is very temperature sensitive.In previous load development, we never really noticed it, as we were loading and shooting in late summer/early autumn. Pretty stable temperatures, not hot, but not uncomfortably cool either. So as you can see, not much of a chance for the 760 to show how finicky it is. However, on this latest range session, the loads I had made up and started testing when it was only +4C - +8C. On the second day at the range, the temperature was between +18C - +20C. The 760 certainly showed it's nasty side that day. I'd have to check my notes, but I seem to recall I only made it just past the half way mark in the loads. The pressures weren't horrible, but definitely a different feel to the bolt, enough to call it quits. I think I'll probably just use the 760 with mid-range loads for foulers. I have less than a half of a pound left, so I won't really miss it. |