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> Light .270 loads - Which projectile?
Light .270 loads - Which projectile?
@ 10:01 pm (GMT) |
Paul YatesIf you wanted to load up some .270 Winchester rounds for a combination of low(er) recoil but good/great killing performance within 150 yards, which projectile would you choose?I'd like to keep recoil down around 13 ft.lbs in a ~7lbs. rifle. I can do this with a 150gr projectile and a M.V. of about ~2500 fps. This puts impact velocity at 150 yards at ~2250fps (depending on the BC of the chosen projectile). My two options so far are 150gr Partition and 150gr SST (annealed). BTW, in this scenario the target is bull moose and the potential shooters are all recoil-averse females (who will be restricted to broadside shots only). |
Replies
@ 11:59 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Bugger, this is where something like the .35 Rem would come into its own. The .358 Win also, firing mild loads.The smaller the bore, the more reliant we are on velocity to create a wide wound. This is especially relevant if hunting a larger bodied animal. If you are going to stick with the .270, then the Partition may be the best best and yes, it still works just fine at 2200fps. This situation is made worse by a 7lb rifle. That's the weight of a newborn baby. Most women can carry a lot more than this. I would suggest a rifle weight of about 9.5lb. This used to be a normal rifle weight until gun companies (I think more than hunters) decided that humans could no longer carry anything. Riley carries our 11.5lb .308 for short stints and she is only 10, does her no harm. I can't see you being able to load to full power at 7lb. Even if felt recoil is fine, smaller women cannot keep control of the rifle and accuracy will suffer. So in this regard, you are on the right track. Nevertheless, this is a good excuse to keep your eyes open for a mid weight .358 or at the very least, even a short heavy barreled .308 (unless this is unsuitable due to climbing etc) firing 200gr bullets. Anyway, these are things to perhaps think about long term. Women are far more adverse to slow killing than they are to high recoil. So do talk about this with them. You can say- better to learn to accept some recoil than to cause suffering. Women get this very quickly and most will put recoil out of their minds once they have learned basic skills and fired light recoiling rifles. Felt recoil can be overcome with technique, Bruising really only comes from poor technique, the pad should stay with the shoulder and push the shooter, not strike the shoulder (but please read my shooting book as there are terrible methods taught now). Ongoing recoil issues are sometimes relevant to other factors such as a lack of self trust in the entire decision to hunt. In other words, there is a whole psychology to work through. People will also take their lead from the more experienced shooter. If I handed you a .375 and said it has a firm but rolling recoil to it that is manageable with basic technique, then this is what you would expect. But if I pulled out some .375 ammo and said- "check out the size of these babies, you're gonna have to hold on real tight cos this thing kicks like a mule", I will have planted some very negative thoughts. These would then lead onto other thoughts such as- Well, I can't expect this rifle to shoot straight. |
@ 03:21 am (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?your sub 150 yard limit gives you an option that wouldn't normally jump out...... have a long hard look at a 110grn barnes driven fast.yes that's a heck of a light pill and a heck of a big animal...BUT you get the speed to get expansion and energy transpher plus retained weight to get penetration, if you are allowed a suppressor you can negate recoil. by dropping projectile weight you will reduce recoil. if you are going to stretch barrel then this wont work but within that range.......might just be an option worth exploring what say you Nathan????? |
@ 04:41 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?I personally would not recommend the 110 Barnes, such light bullet on a moose out that far.The Barnes absolutely need high velocity when they hitand out that far with such a light bullet if you hit a large bone you could well end up with a wounded moose. In fact as my oldest buy is a Barnes fanboy, and for moose he uses only a 30 cal 180 grain Barnes leaving a 3,000 fps from his 300WSM and refuses shots on moose further than 400 tops after seeing what others have done up here. Why not go with the 150 grain Accubond for the .270. Or buy the gal a 7x57 and shoot 160 grain Nosler Partitions and keep the range less than 300 yards. She would do just fine with a 8.5 pound rifle including sope and etc, using either cartridge. I would not have any of my grand daughters or their moms shooting moose with a 7 pound rifle even if I had to carry it for them. What I did with my boys when they were 10 and 11 years old was had them shoot my 7x57 at the range using 140 grain bullets for practice. Lots of rounds were shot at all kinds of ranges too. When it came to them shooting their first moose, I was able to keep the range under 100 yards easily, and they got one shot kills with Winchester Factory 175 grain bullets. Those moose just stood for a couple seconds before dropping. They never even noticed the minor increase in recoil and as I loaded the rifle and handed it to them they never worried what it was fed. My oldest granddaughter one day was at the gun range with me. She was 13 at the time, and wanted to shoot my .308 which I had just sighted in with 165 Grain Nosler Partitions for moose. She had nver shot a big bore before yet she shot a 5 shot group that measured just under 0.5 inches at 100 yards. Rifle with scope and sling, full of ammo weighs in at 9.5 pounds and she packed that beast all over the place last fall with no complaints. I think you are right about being careful about female and recoil however, and suggest lots of low powered prectice loads. When the time comes for that 100 yard moose things will go fine. A lot has to do with how you are hunting with females too. We walk to a spot where we sit and wait. In the later afternoon hunt we tend to walk slowly in areas where they are coming to feed, with me carrying a shooting stick for them to use. I hope this might help. We have taken a lot of moose and elk and never had an issue. |
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@ 05:50 am (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?ok your post got me thinking some more so got out manuals at looked up figures (and yes I do realise numbers aren't everything)your 150grn partition at 2500fps at muzzle = 130 grn partition at 2700 fps at muzzle =110grn at 3000 fps at muzzle when it comes to energy figures at 150 yards and a 110grn is really dawdling along at 3000fps muzzle velocity,I mean its a very very mild load take that same 110 grn pill and bump speed up by a couple or 400 fps to make it a semi warm load still with mild recoil and your energy exceeds the above by a considerable amount. OP has said range will be below 150 yards and shots broadside.....yes that's going to be ideal and not always the case but from what Ive seen with same pill 1/3rd of the weight I have faith in them. a meat saver shot angling forward would be ideal. does not the partitions design mean it will shed 50% of its weight???? meaning your 150 will be 75 pretty quickly. sure a hit on nearside shoulder bone could be a deal breaker but would that not also stop the 2 other above loads just the same if not worse than a all copper pill designed to hold together????? David and goliath similar to a red deer with the .223 you have little room for error with shot placement. maybe also worth consideration would be a 130 grn copper pill,I do know of guys taking elk at mid range successfully with them but then the recoil will increase when enough velocity is used (says the recoil whimp who has suppressor on his .270 which now means I use 150grn pills for first time in 25 years) |
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@ 06:20 am (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Thanks for all the feedback, guys.I'm actually not committed to the idea of a .270 yet. I just like the cartridge myself and I have the gear and knowledge to reload .270 so it seemed like a good way to go. They all have shot a .243 and liked it just fine, but those who have tried stiff 150gr loads in my .270 didn't like it much. I thought I would get a compact/youth in .270 and let them shoot light loads. I did consider swapping in the full loads when Mr Moose is in their sights. I suspect with the adrenaline they might not even notice. But if a short, heavy .308 throwing bigger pills is more appropriate, then maybe I should be looking for one. There is also no lack of 303 Lee-Enfields around. I suspect they'd be on the heavier side and I could just as easily set myself up to reload those. I could also cut the stock down and stick a good recoil pad on it. Plenty of options, but a limited budget... |
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@ 06:25 am (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?By the way, the reason I am veering away from some calibers (.35, .358) is because I really want a caliber for which Lee makes a Classic Lee Loader. This is the only way I can afford to reload. $43 for everything I need. I absolutely love the results I get with my 270 and 243 Lee Loaders. They paid for themselves in one session. |
@ 07:48 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?30-06 with 220gn partition?http://www.midwayusa.com/product/427028/nosler-partition-bullets-30-caliber-308-diameter-220-grain-semi-spitzer-box-of-50 Also making the girls aware of the importance of correct shot placement and the need to reload immediately for a quick follow up shot if required?AND..... remember that the guns loaded so that if the moose drops after the first one NOT to get excited in the moment and forget to unload!!!! I've seen guys forget about this safety issue! As for the 358 cal The dies are available . $28.79 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/172651/lee-pacesetter-3-die-set-358-winchester Whatever you decide to do study your options and do it well. Nathan's Books are worth every word of information contained And money well spent. |
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@ 01:42 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?One of my grand daughters shot an elk last year with a 140 grain Barnes at 35 yards. She shot it face on right between the eyes ad it dropped on the spot.The interesting thing to me is that it barely made it into th ebrain cavity and had insufficient energy to punch through the back of the skull. It was well below the antler boss too. That was from a 7mm-08 at a pretty stiff load with a muzzle velocity of 2770 fps. If she or any other person had taken a shot at 100 to 150 yards and hit it in a large bone say front shoulder it did not seem to me to be nearly enough. Certainly with a good shot and animal standing still a front of shoulder shot or even behind shoulder shot would do the job, but from what I saw and my son was right there, he will not trust less than a 160 grain from now on, and even though he loves Barnes in the 300WSM, he no longer plans to use them for elk or moose as light as 140 grain. I think for less experienced shooters this is a good way to go. For those with the skills and game downing experience, no issue at all. |
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@ 02:00 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?I should also say the 165 grain .308 Nosler Partition and 160 grain 7mm Partitions and even Speer 160 gr Hotcors in the 7x57 will do the job on a moose shoulder bone or not...but I do not like, nor plan to hit there either. I prefer taking most moose with head or neck shots with some front of shoulder or behing shoulder lung shots depending on how it is situated.I once watched a fellow who stopped his truck in front of me, who had come upon a moose standing broadside in the middle of the road take a 80 yard shot and hit the moose twice with a .223 with heavy bullets behind the shoulder. It ran off the road, down a steep bank and across a creek. He followed it right away and I sat waiting for half an hour with him having blocked the road. He returned and said he could not track it after crossing the creek. Looking at his rifle I could see why. |
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@ 04:38 pm (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Mike,I just noticed your further thoughts on the 110 Barnes. I did consider "small and fast" vs. "big and slow" when I went through this thought process. It's an ages old debate it seems and I am still on the fence about it. Warwick, The girls have already hunted deer with the .243 and they have good habits and skills. Room for improvement (as always) but my main concern here is getting them something that is near the top end of their recoil comfort level while maintaining decent killing power. I don't have a reloading press, so I cannot simply buy dies. That's why I mentioned Lee Loaders. This limits me in cartridge choices but that's all I can afford. Regarding using calibers that are way too small for the animal; I am not a proponent of it. This is why I refuse to let them hunt moose with a .243. In fact, I am not overly impressed with the performance of the .243 thus far even on deer. It was used to take 3 mule deer last season and it worked, but I have to say that my .270 does a *much* more emphatic job of it. Whatever I choose for them to shoot moose will likely also become their new deer rifle, and the .243 might find a new home. Bryan, A good example cited there. I briefly considered 7mm-08 because I saw a lot of references to it as "a realistic minimum for moose". Lee does not make a Lee Loader for this cartridge so I quickly dismissed the idea. I also quickly realized that a .270 can easily be "downloaded" to achieve virtually identical recoil and velocities with same/similar weight projectiles. Since I already reload for .270 this seemed like a much better option. I will not be allowing any head or neck attempts unless the range is very, very close (as was your grand daughter's). All, I mentioned 150 yards and I consider that a *maximum*. Ideally the shots will be well under 100. Perhaps I should draw the line at 100, or even less. This could mean letting a lot of moose walk - and thus not taking one at all. It would be a shame to waste their tags (limited entry lottery that they may not win again for years). Even the 150 yard limit will result in animals walking. Often enough they are seen 200-300 yards on the other side of a clear-cut. Perhaps I should develop some very light .270 loads with 120-130gr cup-n-cores for them to practice with and also work up a "hunting" load with a bit more powder behind a 150gr premium projectile, maybe cruising along at ~2750 M.V. Work them up for the same POI, zeroed at 150y. If I add weight to the stock (butt is hollow) and put a premium recoil pad on it, perhaps 15-16 ft.lbs will be barely noticeable "in the heat of the moment". Something tells me the moose won't be able to tell much difference between this and a slower but bigger .308 pill. That's debatable, of course. :) |
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@ 06:52 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?You are right about the 150 gr .270 being fine for moose. They are not hard to take down given good shot placement and penetration is optimal. That was the main reason I mentioned the Nosler Accubond as they do the job well. I also think the Nosler Partitions or the Speer Hotcor bullet, all would do well.Practice loads could be light weight bullets that shoot well in your rifle, and I do like the idea of adding a tiny bit of weight - but that being said, you mentioned the butt stock being hollow. Perhaps have a gunsmith install one of the anti-recoil mercury tubes securly in the butt stock, and fill in the rest of the area with some sort of foam fill and add a Limbsaver or similar recoil pad. You could also have a muzzle brake installed, however they are a beast to tolerate at the gun range as the blast and noise going sideways might give your neighbouring shooters the shakes. You can still do so by having the muzzle threaded and at the range shooting light practice loads just thread on a cover for the treads there and during hunting, take it off and screw on your muzzle brake. This three options will make the rifle alot comfortable to shoot. |
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@ 08:23 pm (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Hi Bryan,I have heard great things about the Accubonds, so I will surely add that projectile to the list of possibilities for the hunting loads. My ultimate choice will depend somewhat on availability. I've got a box of 100 Speer 130gr. boat-tails sitting on the bench. I think I'll use those as the light practice rounds. 43gr of IMR4320 will send them out the (22") pipe at about 2670fps for a recoil of ~12 ft.lbs (or less if I add weight). Regarding recoil reduction, I have never heard of the mercury tubes. I'll have to see if they are available here in Canada for a reasonable price. I was thinking of just filling the butt with sand, or maybe a combination of lead shot (or rolls of solder) and epoxy and/or expanding foam. Cheers, -Paul |
@ 11:19 pm (GMT) |
john feyereisnRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Sounds like the 270 160 partition semi spizer may be worth a look as well. Its hard to beat a partition for what you described, the biggest downfall is the bc, which for your range will not be much of a factor |
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@ 12:43 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Tungsten is nice and heavy and will epoxy in place. Mercury is liquid and toxic and issues with freighting especially by air!http://www.tungstenheavypowder.com/tungsten-specials/ http://www.cabelas.ca/product/3534/lee-50th-anniversary-reloader-kit |
@ 12:59 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Hi Paul.its important not to underestimate our woman folk to much, we will sit here punch numbers calculate this and that weigh up all the options and yet you can normally hand a woman a rifle make sure they hold it right and they'll shoot away without any worries. my wife will happily shoot my 270 tikka with hot 150gr 2800fps plus loads. but i have added extra weight with a bigger scope and mounts the trigger is turned right down and i have installed a limb saver. her main complaint about most of my guns is how muzzle heavy they are as she is short for her to offset something like my 26" barrel norma magnum isn't the easiest. my wife will never be a hunter as she is to soft hearted for that but she shoots well, the trick is to have a decent rest, if your hunting, shooting sticks might be a good option. look closely at you stock design and how light weight your scope is as this may be away of adding beneficent weight. i know Nathan is a big fan of the 150gr loads in 270 but you might have to look at the 130-140gr hotcors or partitons for close range work, or use 130gr for the range and 150gr for hunting without telling them chances are they won't notice the difference when hunting. just on the reloading gear front, have a look at a lee kit. i don't like stepping on local retailers toes as most work bloody hard to keep there business running but have a look at titan reloading in the states as it might be cheaper option. |
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@ 04:26 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Hey Paul, depending where you are it should be easily done. I am in Northeastern British Columbia and the gunsmiths at Corlane Sporting goods can get them. If you think it worthwhile visit a good gunsmith and have then order and install it.A few thoughts direct from Nathan: "One advantage I have seen with the Partition is that on extremely tough shielded boar for example, the frontal area folds back enough that velocity remains high during penetration. The fragmented front core then follows through, so the wound is elongated. The word I use for myself is "thorough". But this does not necessarily mean wide (as per neck shot mistakes as at low velocity and taking trajectory versus poor experience into account). I also forgot to mention the 160gr Partition as an option. If he is determined, I think soft practice loads versus fast hunting loads might be key. You also know how to work your angles, such as shooting behind the shoulder but angling forwards to effect max wounding. This is the sort of thing that comes with experience and is hard to relay the gravity via a forum post. |
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@ 04:32 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Hey Thomas, I hear you on not underestimating young girl shooters.My oldest boy's daughter asked to shoot his 300WSM and she had zero issues with it from the bench as well as trigger sticks. Surprised me but same girl that shot the elk last year. Very cool, does what you ask and remembers what you say. |
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@ 04:38 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Warwick, I understand the reticence re mercury. Some I have used were installed in HS Precision stocks on lighter weight 300 Win Mags which were also threaded for muzzle breaks and fitted with the Limbsaver butt pad. Recoil shooting hot loads of 208 grain A-Max were actually very comfortable to shoot.They are pretty darned safe, in metal tubes - not for their weight but under recoil the movement of the mercury minimizes felt recoil effectively. Each to one's own preferences of course, but I enjoy using them for that purpose. |
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@ 05:26 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?It sucks when Customs x-rays the rifle and says what's the liquid in the stock? And then the fun starts! Tungsten is heavier than mercury by almost half as much again so a smaller piece weights the same, And tungsten won't destroy aeroplanes aluminium body like good old mercury has done so in the past. (If it leaked) Just thought it (tungsten) was an easy way to get the best results. The ultimate is Osmium at 22.6kg/litre! mercury is 13.5kg/ litre and tungsten is 19.6 kg per litre. Sorry for hijacking your thread. |
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@ 12:54 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Women are like Tea bags, They don't know how strong they are until they're in hot water! Eleanor Roosevelt. |
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@ 05:42 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Thanks Warwick, I just learned something here - yet again...Likely right on the Airport Security thing too, although I never had any issue with mine...but then that was a long while ago |
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@ 06:57 pm (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Thanks for the continued feedback and advice, everyone. I continue to learn so much from you guys.Once I actually make my mind up and buy something, then get the girls shooting it, I'll try to post back to let everyone know how its going. |
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@ 03:13 am (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Well I bit the bullet and made a decision. 270 Win it is. I put a deposit on an adult-sized stainless Savage Axis. Hell of a deal for a brand new rifle at $350 CAD including tax and shipping. The beauty of the Axis is that the long and short actions are interchangeable, which means I can install the new stainless barreled action into the girls' compact stock from their existing Axis .243.Today I took that youth/compact stock and filled it with acrylic caulking, which added 1.3 pounds of additional weight. Total rifle weight is now 8.3 pounds without a fully loaded magazine. I'm guessing that will increase to 8.5 pounds with a fully loaded magazine and the new barreled action (which is 2 inches longer than the "youth" 20" barrel of the .243). In this configuration, recoil with 130 grain .270 "practice/deer" loads will be basically the same as the .243 with factory 100gr Partitions in the 7lb rifle. 150gr moose killer loads will have a bit more kick, but I expect it will go unnoticed in real hunting situations. I'll post pics of dead meese if they are successful. ;) |
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@ 03:21 am (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?...and of course I will be reducing the Axis trigger weight from 7lbs to about 3lbs as I did with the .243.The .243 barreled action will go into the "adult" stock and sold for a very good price, or perhaps kept around as a very light-weight and compact varminter. |
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@ 07:09 pm (GMT) |
Paul YatesRe: Light .270 loads - Which projectile?Just reporting back about my success so far.I loaded up some 130 grain Speer boat tails in front of 43 grains of IMR4320, for an approximate M.V. of 2670 fps. With these loads and the added weight to the stock, my wife and daughters found recoil to be entirely acceptable. My daughter even said it was "fun", which is a very good sign. I also loaded up some premium 150 grain bullets behind a reasonable amount of IMR7828 (w/ CCI magnum primer). The goal was to get trajectory fairly close to the practice rounds, which seems to have been a success. Recoil is heavier but I do not think the girls will have any issue once a moose is in their sights. They'll be using the light loads for deer at under 100 yards, as well. They'll kill at least as good as the .243 rounds they were shooting last year. |
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