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> New Rifle Purchase
New Rifle Purchase
@ 09:02 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayThis is my first post, I had a search of the forum here before posting but couldn't find what I was looking for, please forgive me if this is a repeated question. I'm also from Australia for context.I'm looking to purchase my first rifle. I'm looking at purchasing a Tikka T3x in either 243 or 223. I'm thinking the Laminated Stainless model. Link Here I'm just wondering if anyone could offer advice on the model and calibre? I'm thinking that the 223 would be better because of the cost of ammo and the fact that I think I'll be using the rifle fairly frequently, the majority of which will be at the range. Cheers for the knowledge and advice in advance. Andrew. |
Replies
@ 02:19 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: New Rifle PurchaseWelcome to the forum, Andrew.Both are good choices for the range, my preference is the .243 . It will give you a little more versatility if you decide to expand your skills into hunting small to medium game. Also, in regards to cost of ammo, whichever calibre you choose, save your fired brass. This will cut down the cost of reloading if you decide to go this route later. |
@ 06:29 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: New Rifle Purchasehi Andrew and welcome to the forum.those tikka's are just great rifles the laminated stock models may need bedding but you can work through that when the time is right. its always a tough one with caliber choice. im not sure what game species are common in your local area? prices of centre fire ammo in nz goes kinder like cheapest 7.62x39 223 308 then most other non magnum's are similar price we have to look at what you plan to hunt for what caliber, here in nz red deer is one of the most common species so i normally recommend new shooters towards a 308. 308 target ammo (wincherster) is cheaper then buying wincherster brass here so if you need new brass you buy hundred rounds of target ammo to shoot at the range then reload it with hunting bullets |
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@ 09:08 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: New Rifle PurchaseThanks guys,I'm in NSW, specifically the Hunter Valley which is is 2hrs north of Sydney. I'm right in the vineyard area here. Saving the brass is a good idea, I'd not thought of that. Do spent casings keep well? 5+ years or so without being used or would they begin to corrode? Common game species include feral pigs, foxes, deer (we have a local population of Chital deer that escaped from a local zoo sometime in the past and are now established, they aren't uncommon but also not exactly readily available) and of course kangaroos. Kangaroos are protected but you can get permits to shoot them from time to time, I think they are AU$1.50 per tag and must be shot in the head or a frontal chest shot. So in either case, both calibres should be suitable, but for the pigs and deer, a 243 would be preferable of course. I'm thinking of getting a 308 down the track, my wife would like a shotgun before I get another rifle though :) |
@ 09:38 pm (GMT) |
Aussie HunterRe: New Rifle PurchaseIf deer and pigs are on the menu then maybe you need the .243. In a perfect world the .223 and .308 would be handy. maybe the .223 with a heavier barrel and suitable scope for spotlighting, targets and calling foxes and the .308 set up for hunting.You may even find there are Wild Dogs in places not to far from you but not in big No's That doesn't answer the question but if you are targeting the pigs deer from the start maybe go to a .308 first if that suits you? I have an ATA shotgun and for the $ it is good pending what your wife wants. I would like more guns but I have .223 and .308 so that gives me something to cover all bases. I think if you had .223/.243 or .243/.308 they are sort of calibres that are in some ways not that far apart but the .223/.308 are two very different calibres. Tikka, Remington and Howa all have any amount of aftermarket upgrades and the Howa start at far better prices but my Tikka T3 laminate .308 looks nice too and the T3x has some improvements out of the box. All that said a .223 with good ammo and shot placement has taken all types of game in Australia. |
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@ 01:05 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: New Rifle PurchaseThere's nothing wrong with using a shotgun fox and deer. Not sure if slugs would work on pigs, they definitely work on deer. You could also use it for a close range fowler if you wanted to. With a "defender" style shotgun with a smooth bore, you would lack the long range for high flying geese/ducks, but it would certainly handle slugs for deer out to 100 yds. If you get a 12ga. with a rifled barrel, you will miss out on the birds and small game. |
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@ 02:27 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: New Rifle PurchaseIn reality, I think most of the shooting will be at a range rather than at game. As much as I'd like think I'd be shooting at game often, the reality may be somewhat different. But my local range is a 900yd range which is nice.But what you said Aussie is right, good shot placement and right ammo should be sufficient for most of my needs. As for the shotgun Paul, my wife would like it for clay targets. So a suitable set up for that would most. She's tried a few Mirokus that were set up for similar sized people and has liked them. I have shot well with an ATA Aussie 21/25 on my first round in about 10 years but it just smashed my face up real bad :( |
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@ 10:38 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: New Rifle PurchaseI forgot to ask...What twist rate would you all recommend? And what Barrel Length? Faster twist/slower twist with 510mm/570mm Barrel. |
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@ 02:37 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: New Rifle PurchaseThe twist rate will be determined by what projectiles you are or may be using. An example would be in the .243, where most barrels are 1-10", this is decidedly too slow for the 105gr A-MAX. |
@ 03:59 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: New Rifle PurchaseOr in the case of pigs, the heaviest Barnes TTSX that is available for the .243. |
@ 06:19 am (GMT) |
jasonRe: New Rifle PurchaseIf you go for a .223 the tikka 1:8 twist is good. I'm on my second one. The first one shot 50-80gr projectiles. The 2nd one doesn't seem to like 50's maybe 55 will work OK. But I'm going to stick with the 80's. Both rifles shot one ragged hole at 100.80's might not mean much to you as I don't think there is a factory round with 80's. But there a great rifle with a wide usable range with that twist, and only become more usable if you start hand loading. |
@ 10:51 am (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: New Rifle PurchaseHi Andrewits a bit of a personal thing deciding what caliber would suit, I like the idea of getting a tikka they are a great basic rifle that can be tweaked easily if you are going to use the rifle for range use only I would think the 223 would give you good service IMO better than the 243 only because of barrel life and ammo cost, but for the field Deer/Pigs ect the 243 would be a better choice and it can be loaded down for varminting. I'm not sure of the rules in NSW but in VIC you can use a 243 minimum for deer up to red deer that you have to use a 270. maybe you should buy a 223 and a 243? regards mark |
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@ 02:35 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: New Rifle PurchaseThe Remington and Tikka rifle 1:10 twist rate is not the answer for 90 to 105 grain bullets, which he will be better off using for deer and pigs.Personally, if I were doing this, I would buy a used T3 Lite or Remington action at a good price, take it to a gunsmith and just have a B&C stock and a 24 inch Benchmark 5R barrel installed, chambered for 6.5 Creeedmore or 260 Remington in a twist rate appropriate for the bullet weights he will want to use from range to whatever he might wish to hunt for. The Creedmore has a lot of support these days and with one of these barrels will be very good to say the least. Recoil too is not an issue with them for lighter bullets in particular and the 140 grain bullets will take down whatever he wants to hunt given his location. This is not a particulalry complex thing to do and he will get precisely what he wants. |
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@ 03:47 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: New Rifle PurchaseIn answer to your question on brass life: yes, brass will last indefinitely, if kept dry. As well, the oils and acids from handling can have a detrimental effect, but all you really need to do is wipe them off with a clean rag. I have hundreds of rounds of brass stored in open plastic nut jars or yogurt/ice cream containers, some that haven't seen the light of day for years, and they are all fine. If you are in an area of higher humidity, you may consider using those little packets of silica (the ones that say "Do Not Eat") that come in electronics, etc., and put the lids on. This pertains to factory sporting ammo, I'm not sure if the same will apply to military surplus or not. The .223 shooters will probably be able to help you there. |
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@ 03:56 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: New Rifle PurchaseAs for barrel length, generally speaking, the longer the barrel the higher the velocity. But having said that, profile also comes into it. If you are mainly bench shooting, the heavier the better, as the larger diameters tend to tame a lot of the barrel "whip" or vibration. The added weight of the larger barrels also help in reducing the amount of felt recoil. The down side of the longer, heavier barrels is that if you decide to use them as a carry gun, you have to be willing to tolerate the weight and length. A good test is to just pick one up at the store and see how it feels. |
@ 07:45 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: New Rifle PurchaseHi Andrew, welcome to the forums and sorry for the late reply, I have been a bit under the weather.Many years ago when I offered my services as a general guide, prior to tyeaching, I had to ban the use of the .243 among my clients. I had to do this because of penetration and also wounding issues on boar. A good hand load with a stout bullet can work, but then many clients failed to bother with hand loads and put little thought into ammo selection. Also-many would get flustered or simply lack the experience to place shots carefully. This cartridge can be a mongrel without due care. Put simply, a .308 is the fix. I doubt anyone would regret their purchase of a .308. The price difference in ammo is not a big deal these days. Yes, you can buy cheap .223 ammo but it will not always shoot well in your rifle. The cheaper you go, the worse the ammo tends to be. With the .308, you can learn to shoot way out long at the range, you can learn to hand load with ease and you will have plenty of power for any situation. Cost of ammo for range work may be a consideration but the cost of ammo for hunting is not. Not when we are taking a life. Hard to believe people debate the value of the life force of animal. How much is a life worth? 50 cents? $1.50? The only fly in the ointment is that the .308 does produce a bit more recoil than the .243 in a light rifle. However, if you have your eye on the Tikka Laminate, this may help a good deal. A decent sized optic can help too and you will need this anyway if you want to shoot long at your range. The Tikka Varmint is also good idea if you intend to do a lot of range work. Others here have used the book series before making their choice- helps avoid having some salesman sweet talk you into some rubbish you don't want or need. The first book is a buyer beware, the others give you the tools you need to proceed thereafter. Having said this, the final book (Shooting) goes back down the rabbit hole of optics shopping. I use the .223 and .243 a good deal. I like both of them. But I am hesitant to recommend either to you at this stage. |
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@ 10:24 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: New Rifle PurchaseThanks for the replies everyone!Very grateful for you sharing your information and experience. Definitely a lot think about there. The .308 has crossed my mind more than once. I'm not the biggest of blokes though. I've never shot a .308 before and I'd be worried it might be a big, in terms of recoil; finding a heavy enough rifle might be a bit out of the price range. I had a shot of a mate's SMLE a good while ago when I was a fair bit smaller and that kicked, not painfully but enough that the barrel jumped about a 30cm off the front rest, thankfully landing back on the rest. That said, it might be worth having a few shots before ruling it out. Nonetheless, the availability, variety and cost of the .308 ammo is very attractive. I'm wary of buying second hand as far as existing issues with the rifle are concerned. Buying new I feel a bit more secure if issues present themselves that warranty will cover the majority of things, that I don't cause myself obviously. The optic I was looking at was the Leupold VX2 4-12x50 in silver (so it matches the rifle all nice ;) Not a lot of choice in silver. I also spoke to a few gunshop owners that said that silver scopes will soon be like hens teeth with most manufacturers moving away from them. There is the Nikon Prostaff 5 3.5-14x40 too. |
@ 11:45 pm (GMT) |
Andy HreljaRe: New Rifle PurchaseHi Andrew,I tip the scales at a massive 65kg (maybe 66 after a big meal...lol) and I've got a Howa .308 with a sporter barrel (not the ultralight, but still light) on a Boyds featherweight thumbhole stock and the recoil is fine. I've put 20 rounds through it at the range with no real bother. I think, unless you're even smaller than me, you should be fine. The price of the ammo for what you get, literally "bang for buck" was the main reason I went with .308. Plus here in Oz at least you can find .308 ammo everywhere. |
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@ 12:15 am (GMT) |
Aussie HunterRe: New Rifle PurchaseI put a Limbsaver recoil pad on my Tikka T3 .308 but I see the t3x has an upgraded recoil pad.I see Nathans point in suggesting this calibre for hunting and particularly in Australia. I am say only average height and a few Kg over my ideal weight but only 85kg. and find even a .308 over the bench does feel a lot sharper than using it standing. Its not unbearable but I don't even notice it in the heat of the action when I am shooting a pig or even a fox from the car and have used up to 168gn projectiles. Others suggest the same including my son who is quite competent with his .223 , he's a similar build he is recoil shy I guess. I don't want to beat myself up but I like my shooting. I have a .300wm and a .458wm but have not done full loads in the .458 yet but from standing it boots but is still a lot of fun. on the bench its a lot stiffer recoil but I need to sight it somehow. On the matter of your wifes shotgun my ATA was purchased secondhand from a local. apparently it has a mercury recoil reducer fitted in the stock after market but I have not checked but the fella I bought it from was a small build. My wife and daughter both use it when we have a casual clay shoot and my daughter was 14-15 when I got it. but do what it takes to keep the wife happy. In comparison an old Bailkail I have does boot with the same ammo so there is something in the design and while I liked using my mates Winchester it was noticeably heavier than the ATA. perhaps your wife would like a .223 along with whatever you settle on, it gives you the best of both worlds and it still has plenty of potential in the field |
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@ 04:05 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: New Rifle Purchase1. Perspective:My wife is currently shooting a Howa .358 Norma Magnum, firing 225 grain bullets at 2925fps. She finds the recoil just fine. It doesn't have a brake and the stock design is abysmal on this particular rifle in that she is a lefty shooting a right monte carlo. The big problem comes when folk are new to the game. If they start with something manageable, then graduate to (e.g) a light weight .308, the process is more manageable. But if the person buys a light weight rifle that produces high perceived recoil from the get go (thanks a bunch gun companies), the shooter, having no experience and no support*, may feel overwhelmed. This generally sets off a series of unfortunate events. When I said- the only fly in the ointment is recoil, my concern is not the rifle or how it will physically effect you. You are a grown man and I am sure you will be just fine. My main concern was as I have just described. Its a bit like starting a new supersize regime, finding that day 1 caused some physical or mental stress, then on day 2 deciding that perhaps X might be better than whatever Y cardio it was that you were doing. And so it goes on, day after day, never settling. This creates the phantom fiddler from book one (or was it three?). So again - perspective. Those of you who have read my books, know that there is a lot more scope for me to explain all of this within the privacy the final book and allows me to communicate in a different manner to how I compose my posts here. *If an SMLE jumps up 1 foot, the person who set you up, did so poorly. That one sentence tells me all I need to know about how your buddy shoots or shot at that point in time. A case of the blind leading the blind as occurs when we are young. I started with an SMLE and brass but plate when I was 12- I thought this was normal at the time. But I was drilled properly. I was more concerned back then about dropping the rifle in the dirt. If I dropped the rifle, chances are I would end up on the ground beside the rifle, cleaning blood out of my own muzzle. 2. Looks: Just about everybody who wanted a silver scope, soon learned to loathe the glaring things after purchasing them. Put that out of your mind just for now and focus on eye relief, reliability and function. |
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@ 04:16 am (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: New Rifle PurchaseI recon a tikka in 308 would be ideal, I am tweaking a t3 lite at the moment after I got sick and tired of my mate wanting to try this and that first and going around in circle's because someone told him to try it first, I just told him to stop the bs and hand the rifle over so I could bed it, tweak the trigger, install a lighter spring, a new recoil lug ( the original aluminium one was indented from recoil and the fit was very sloppy, I have seen this on more than one tikka), grind the bolt stop and replace the plastic magazine with one that works but is 30-06 size so he can reload for a minimum jump to the lands by seating the projectile out more.so IMO if you can get a tikka 308 in timber stock it would be a very good start, the 243 would be a better choice than the 223 for deer and pigs but for a range gun for practice a 223 would be more practical than the 243. I like the 150gr size projectiles in my 308's, 150's kill very well, the boot is not bad and you can reload for a more comfortable recoil, good luck with your choice regards mark |
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@ 05:01 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: New Rifle PurchaseI'm the same size as Andy Hrelja. 5'6" and 65kg, maybe pushing 70kg since having a child.The .308 could be a great option then judging by everyone's experience and advice. It is the quintessential calibre, especially here in Oz and I'm sure NZ as well. I'm still leaning towards to 223 simply because I'm not an expert shooter by any means, but very keen to develop my long range skills. In short, I think I'll be going through a quite a few rounds to begin with. Having a lighter recoiling calibre is probably going to be good in the long run. Something about learning to crawl before you walk, walk before you run... And although the wife isn't that interested in rifles, if she ever did want to have a go, I think she'd be more inclined with a 223. I think an investment in the book series is in order too. It's been very refreshing having this forum and information available as well. I find a lot of the stuff from the USA doesn't transfer as well to contexts in Oz. It's nice to read about shooting and calibres from a ballistics perspective rather than simply for the sake of shooting. A whole lot of very useful and interesting information here. |
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@ 10:41 am (GMT) |
Aussie HunterRe: New Rifle Purchaseyou put on weight since having a child? mmm? you don't look like the child bearing type! and I am assuming your wife is female ? And by the photo I am sure she must be better looking. But hey if you had a kid then you can maybe get all the $ you need to buy yourself and a few mates some nice rifles.Sorry, I just thought that was my wife's excuse. congratulations in the baby and maybe a few Kg wont hurt, I have a few to spare I hope you find the right gear to suit and I hope the wife gets a nice shotgun, girls shoot and we must play nice , particularly if you wanna borrow the shotgun. I don't do facebook so Im enjoying these forums while my wife is on there good luck with it |
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@ 06:31 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: New Rifle Purchasehi Andrewwe can look at learning to ways low recoil rifle easy to shoot. heavier recoil rifle teach's you to shoot properly because any mistakes show up. i learnt to shoot with a 303 then went to a tikka in 270. stock design has everything to do with recoil tikka to me has very good design. both my wife and my nephew shoot my 270 without any issue and this is with 150gr hand loads loaded right up. if your planning on doing a lot of range work look at the heavy barrel tikka (varmint) rifle the plastic stock version i don't believe is much dearer then the laminate stock light weight. trust me if you want to shoot at the range you'll be happy to have a heavier barrel that doesn't heat up as quick. you won't regret getting a 308 and with the gun laws in oz it sounds like if you get 223 to get a 308 later is bit of a hassle. |
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@ 07:38 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: New Rifle PurchaseNice post Thomas. Very helpful and succinct. |
@ 10:09 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: New Rifle PurchaseAs a range learning tool the 223 is hard to beat, looking at it purely from a cost perspective. But it will allow really piss poor technique to develop due to the low recoil levels as already said (read the books!).My 15 year old has been shooting my 308/168gr Rem Police for 2 years and his best is 1.2" at 280 yards. He is not an amazingly gifted shot, just using correct techniques with a suitable rifle combo. With game animals & range work thrown into the mix the 308 has been offered as the better option. This is multiplied lots if you don't reload unless you buy premium factory 223 ammo & use it with careful shot placement on game. The Tikka Varmint is a great option as Thomas has said and would be a lot more suitable for range work than a Lite even in a laminate stock. |
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