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> 300 RUM performance
300 RUM performance
@ 06:19 am (GMT) |
Chris HuntOK ordered a Remington spss in 300 rum gets to nz in mid march. Is any one on the forum down loading it with the 130 ttsx or the 150 ttsx as a spook and shoot with-out muzzle brake, with the least amount of recoil and around 3000 fps. load data please ! or load data for hornady 208 amax or 230 otm burger as fast as you can ! with pressure just under 65 000 psi with muzzle brake out of a 26" barrel 1-10 twist as this will be my long range load for sika, reds and pigs and maybe some smelly goats for practice . thanks |
Replies
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@ 07:42 am (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: 300 RUM performanceHi Chris,I shot some amaxs down the range the other day out of my rum only at 200yrd got 3 shot ragged hole with 90gr of 2225. I didnt get to try the load I wanted to try and that was 91gr of 2225 as that proved best last time out. I changed bullet seating depth before I came out and the 90gr load speaks for itself I think but going out soon to check 91gr load soon I get back soon and let you know. Nosler brass 215m gold medal fed primers. ogive measurement 2.935 may be different in your rifle havnt checked velocity yet. Cheers |
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@ 04:17 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 300 RUM performanceHi Chris, please have a look at what Trevor is doing as he is on the right track towards developing a good all around load. MV for Trevor will be around 2900-2950fps. Trev could keep working up a couple of grains (which would put him about 2.5gr over listed max) if he wants to but his current level of accuracy is ideal.If you are going to download for a light recoiling load, use the same charges that you would use for the 208gr A-Max. Bullet jump will be severe with light weight bullets and this combined with the 1:10 twist rate may pose limitations. Nevertheless, it is still worth experimenting. If you shop around, you may be able to find sample packs of the 130 and 150gr Barnes. It would be nice to develop a load with the 130gr at around 3100fps. But do not get too carried away if things don't pan out. Learning to use one load as an allrounder can be a good thing. One other option is to download the 208gr A-Max for bush work / lighter recoil. The 208gr bullet has to be seated very deep in the RUM case so you won't have to worry about powder detonation problems (hopefully). Sometimes, by dropping 300fps, you can develop a more mild recoiling load that strikes dead on at 100 yards- as opposed to the pet load sighted 3" high at 100 yards. You'll need to drop back about 7 grains to achieve this- around 84gr, MV 2600fps. Use black sharpie/vivid marker pen on the bullet tips to designate downloads. |
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@ 06:41 am (GMT) |
Chris HuntRe: 300 RUM performanceThanks Trev and Nathan. What sized groups are you getting Trev ? and what make is your rifle ?Nathan I will give option one a good go once rifle arrives ! I would like to use the ttsx as they are better in the bush than the a-max minimal defection through scrub and hold together well. One NZ hunting Mag did some testing on this ttsx the best over all. I have seen the light and sold the tikka 7mm-08 ( sorry tikka owners ) and brought a model seven in 308 bush pig 17.5 inch barrel surpressed etc. After shooting a few sika with it the 308 drops them far better than the 7mm-08 ever did.So loving the 30 cal ! I have 130 ttsx and 168 amax 110 sp varmint and 220 rn serria's subsonic shooting well out of it and dont mind doing a 2 load option for the 300 RUM as doing it already with 308. Was going to use norma brass as I think nosler is softer ? use FED primers and ar2225 But really want to get the big 230 otm burgers with there high b.c cranking. Could trail boss be an option for down loading ? As i am doing with my 220 serria's in my 308 ? One last question does low psi = low recoil just looking at other powders (Dont mind using 2 powders ) on the ADI website they have the psi stated for 300 Rum loads. cheers Chris |
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@ 08:37 am (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: 300 RUM performanceHi Chris.The rifle is a rem sendero sf ll has been bedded new rifle basix trigger set at 1.4 lb and lugs lapped and brake with nxs 5.5x22x56. My last group was 3 shots in one ragged hole well close enough to be exact its 0.226.5 and Im looking forward to trying the 91gr load as that was tighter than the 90gr load in previous tests before changing seating depth. I cant realy help with the tech stuff mate Im a newby as far as loading and all the balistic side of it goes. Cheers Trev. |
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@ 03:50 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 300 RUM performanceAs I understand it- Nosler brass is Norma Brass. Both are very soft in my experience. I tend to use Rem Brass in the Ultra mags.Do not go fiddling powders in either the 7mm or .300 RUM. Use only what the manufacturers recommend. The case design is over bore and if the wrong powder is selected and downloaded, uneven burning can alter the burn rate of the powder (all powder ignited at once), resulting in pressures over 70,000psi. Yes, low PSI equals lower pressure but the differences are very small. I have done many tests with bullet deflection. One test was with FMJ military ball .308 ammo, studying deflection in Manuka scrub. I used Tracer ammunition and did the tests at night. Conclusion- the bullets could go anywhere. Through other tests I found that a high SD bullet would sometimes do better than a shorter bullet. In the .30 cal, this means bullets 180 grains and heavier. But even SD has its limits. If the bullet glances the side of a twig rather than hitting it dead on, it will yaw and tumble the same as anything else. I saw the tests you are talking about and yes, the TSX performed quite well, but it still has the same limitations if it glances twigs, rather than hitting dead on. Your project is an intersting one. On the one hand, you are wanting the power of the .300 RUM but on the other hand, recoil is an issue that is already worrying you. One could easily say- why buy a .300 RUM if you are worried about the recoil? But on closer inspection, what we are talking about is a very light rifle for the power generated. So a better question is- how do you utilize this power without being beaten into next week with a resultant loss of accuracy. Ideally, a heavier barrel would be better, but the SPS does not have a heavy barrel so thats moot. Also, you are wanting to use the rifle for bush work which calls for relatively light barrel weights. If you were after a dedicated long range rifle, I would have recommended that you do not adopt the SPS and instead save for a Sendero type rifle. Ultimately, the challenge will be how recoil effects accuracy by jolting the rifle of its point of aim during ignition. This will naturally become your primary focus as opposed to felt recoil. You will probably either have to replace the stock with a Laminate or use my sniper tape and paint method (blog) to increase grip area or texture. A muzzle brake can help but a spiral ported brake will make the rifle worse to shoot. If the brake thread is cut to M12, the muzzle will most likely swell after a while and the barrel will have to be docked. I don't know if you can go M14 thread on an SPS RUM barrel, I can't recall right now and am not about to go to the scrap bin on Christmas eve to find out. I think half inch is what the barrel will need to be cut to- awfully close to 12mm/M12. I still think there is room for the creation of front pistol grips for bolt action rifles. An SPS stock could be worth experimenting on seeing as it is a cheap (who cares) stock design. For now, focus on the rifle accuracy factors of bedding, stabilizing, stock replacement or tape and paint, trigger work or replacement, running the bore in, load work, shooting technique, trigger control- long eye relief optics, hunting methods, drop charts etc etc etc. Down loading is fine as long as you are not trying to go overboard and causing problems. You have basically 600 rounds or so to decide whether you like the .300 RUM before its time to rebarrel. When you rebarrel, you will have the option of adopting the same contour barrel, going for a heavier contour barrel or perhaps adopting the .300 Win Mag for lighter recoil. I can understand where you are coming from. You will need to be patient and put a lot of attention into quiet observation and careful planning as you move forwards. |
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@ 10:56 pm (GMT) |
Chris HuntRe: 300 RUM performanceOK Couple of good points thanks Nathan will try Remington brass first and not mess with the trail boss powder ! I kind of want the best of both worlds this rifle is going to be carried through the bush up hills bush bashing to get to some long range spots in the kaweka's and ruahine's so none of this 4 wheeler rides to shooting spots !On the way there I can bump into the odd deer so with-out the muzzle brake to save my ears ! I would send a ttsx on its way but then wouldn't bother walking up to the long range look outs or open tops as I have secured my deer for the day and we would be on our way to the chiller ! But when reaching a spot i would then mount brake and Change loads for an a-max or Berger, set scope if needed and start to glass for animals. and use ear plugs ! I want to try and anchor the animals on the spot like the 338 can as I don't have a dog and have seen to many animals dead run with the 7mm first hand and on NZ hunters DVD using 7mm wildcats but some of the animals did just pole axe. so 338 to big for what i want 7mm to small but ballistics better than 300 for the size of projectile but 30 cal kills faster than 7mm I personally don't like the sendero its more for shooting targets and shooting strings at range or long range shooting with the use of a Quad Bike. Sorry TREV and others I am going to take the rifle down to Fiordland to chase Elk so don't see the point in carting a rifle that is over weight and bulky.When I will have an over weight Pack on My shoulders. The spss will be over time just the donor for the action with a heavy but not as heavy as sendero barrel, trued action, lapped A new stock, trigger talley rings etc it will be a work in progress. And a few trips to the Gun smith 300 win mag lacks the speed for the 200+ projectiles I am not recoil sensitive but don't want to be silly about using a light weight rifle UN-braked with a full load of AR 2225 behind a 200+ projectile. Merry Christmas Nathan have the day off tomorrow ! Cheers Chris Hunt |
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@ 08:59 am (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: 300 RUM performanceNo probs Chris each to his own but I wont be using mine as a target rifle and yes your right abit to much to carry around.And your smack on about the quad and thats why I chose this rifle to smackem from afar cause no more climbing and crawling through the bushes for me which is sad but hey we do what we gotta do. Cheers Trev. |
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@ 01:43 am (GMT) |
Trevor WilkesRe: 300 RUM performanceHi chaps,Just correcting my group size from the widest point edge to edge is actualy a sober measurement of 0.395.5 at 200yrd. Cheers Trev. |
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@ 03:55 am (GMT) |
Chris HuntRe: 300 RUM performanceTREV thats an awsome group good shooting !I am a bit young to start using a Quad the old man would kick my arse and call me all sorts of names ! cant wait for new rifle to arrive ! Chris |
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@ 04:57 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 300 RUM performanceOne of the troubles of trying to run Dual loads with lighter weight bullets, is the change in POI. Differences are even more pronounced if using a brake versus removing the brake and using a different load. The difference in POI for the loads and style of hunting you suggest, could be anywhere from between 6 to 12".Attempting to reset turrets in the field may prove frustrating. You would need to zero the turrets for the long range load, then dial for the bush load, then dial back to your long range zero for the tops. You will have to have some form of note laminated to the rifle to tell you what you need to dial to for your bush load. That will be the most productive method of obtaining your goal. The .300 Win Mag does not lack speed for shooting 200 grain or heavier projectiles out to ranges exceeding 1000 yards. In a lighter weight rifle, the .300 WM has merit in its ability to reach out without the recoil of the largest of magnums. Try to keep an open mind about this. The .300 RUM will give you decreased wind drift, that is where its strengths lay. I do believe that the .300 RUM cartridge is better served in a heavy barreled platform, simply to minimize heat towards the chamber end of the barrel. Each cartridge has its strengths and limitations in conjunction with the rifle platform utilized. The 7mm Magnum produces very fast kills on Ruahine Reds when utilizing an appropriate bullet. You will see slow kills with the VLD due to its now very tough jacket. Appropriate bullets include the 162gr SST and the 160 grain Partition, the Partition used out to 700 yards. The 162gr A-Max produces best performance on Ruahine Reds at ranges of 300 yards and beyond. At close ranges, select shot placement helps ensure fast killing. I am about to start testing Matrix bullets. In 7mm I will be testing the 190gr VLD. My preliminary tests are showing that the Matrix is as soft as the A-Max but of course with much greater weight and sectional density in its favor. BC is .807. The heavy Bergers in .30 caliber have the potential to produce very slow kills on Ruahine Reds and Sika in the Kaweka ranges, again due to changes to the bullet design. My annealing methods are insufficient with these heavy bullet weights, the process simply isn't reliable enough to guarantee improved performance. The 208gr A-Max is about ideal as an allrounder. In the .338, many projectiles that are considered long range death rays, rather than producing immensely wide wounding, producing pin hole wounds once velocities drop below 2000fps. Examples of bullets which may produce pin hole wounds include the Sierra SMK, Lapua Scenar and Berger VLD. Most show and tell pics and stories of 'great success' with these bullets occur at impact velocities above 2000fps. People simply don't talk about the slow kills, that seems to be my job. Having said that, I get plenty of private emails about slow kills. The only true long range low velocity frangible bullet that I have been able to find for the .338, is the Rocky Mountain RBT. As always, matching the bullet to the job at hand is critical for fast, clean kills. At extremely long ranges, fully frangible bullets are required in the absence of high velocity disproportionate to caliber wounding. |
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@ 05:13 am (GMT) |
Chris HuntRe: 300 RUM performanceJust read the latest NZ hunter mag and there 7lb scoped rifle cambered in 7mm Fatmax (Wildcat) 300 norma necked down to 7mm. IT shoots a nosler 150 e- tip down loaded at 3400 fps and has 1/2 inch POI difference (to the right) than there 180 Berger long-range load of 3250fps with muzzle brake. So it is possible ! and they push the a-max close to 3500fps all out of a short action Remington.I am open minded ! and there are guys out there with some impressive rifles pushing the boundary's. "The .300 RUM will give you decreased wind drift, that is where its strengths lay." Thats what I want !!! The 300 RUM can be LOADED TO 300 WIN MAG And 30-06 so 3 rifles in one. I have ordered the rifle like I said at the start of this thread so to late now ! but if I was going to get a 7mm it would be the 7mm STW I don't want the hassle of wildcats I am aware of the heat issue in the skinny barrel but just because you have a Fat Barrel doesn't mean its going to be accurate. Remington spss can run a M14x1 thread for muzzle You down loaded your 7mm-300 win mag for a 140 sierra bullet test for New Zealand outdoor and hunting Magazine why not use your 7mm rem mag? Marketing the 7mm practical ? With a BC of .475 7mm 160 partition stated why would you bother ? when you have a 162 a-max at an actual .600 BC Tested at around 3000fps in 7mm rem mags unless you are trying to handicap yourself ? 600 yards in knowledge base from a MV of 3100fps Cant comment on slow wounding in 338 as i haven't seen it. Hope 208 a-max works out in my 300 rum and that hornady bring out a 230-240gn a-max in 30 cal or get a hold of those matrix bullets in 210 with there high b.c |
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@ 03:39 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 300 RUM performanceHi Chris, my intention was not to push a 7mm onto you. The reason why I wrote that paragraph about the sevens, is because you made a statement in your original post that you have "seen first hand and on DVDs" the sevens producing slow kills. What you have to understand is that while there may not be many people posting on this forum, there are up to 250,000 readers observing it over the course of a year. I have to be mindful of these readers and their concerns as well as your concerns. As an example, in the U.S right now, there are many guys setting up 7mm Rem Mag rifles for their next Elk season.The 160 grain Partition is one of the best bullets for those who will be encountering both close and long range shots on large bodied deer sprecies. The information I gave in that paragraph is a way to avoid the slow killing you talked about. As far as handicapping myself with a BC of .475. For many readers, 600-700 yards is as far as they will shoot Elk based on the emails I have received. Furthermore, there is one reader here who primarily hunts the Ruahines, his long shots run out to ranges of around 600 yards. So the Partition has merit for many people. I downloaded the Practical because the scope was off the 7mm Rem Mag at the time, used on another test rifle. I have no need to market the 7mm Practical, my work load is too heavy as it is. If I was marketing the Practical, downloading it would not be the best way to promote it. Regarding differences in POI, I was trying to offer productive solutions in case the rifle does not produce a close dual POI. My goal here is to help and as I have said, there are many readers observing these posts who will come across similar challenges. Sometimes the answers are not easy and a wide range of issues and solutions need to be addressed. |
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@ 10:05 pm (GMT) |
Chris HuntRe: 300 RUM performanceYou have helped Nathan don't get my wrong I am great full for the information but its still your opinion and my opinion clashing a little.Your type of hunting Different than mine and different than others out there. I was after a load for 300 RUM thanks Trev ! The handicap was only about the low B.C ( wind drift) not the effects on killing an animal. I load a 60 grain partition in 223 for bush range for my father and they work great after reading the K.B We loaded some up. and have shot many deer with it.None have been lost. I also said that they 7mm did just pole axe some. This what I read in the K.B and I know it is inside 300 yards BUT 150kg (330lb) deer 7mm RUM (and magnum family) Range inside 300 yards Conventional soft point (Interlock / Gameking), SST or A-Max of 160-162 grains Bullet impacts chest but meets so much resistance that not enough energy is available for the production of hydrostatic shock Animal stays standing or runs, time to death around 45 seconds. Inspection of carcass reveals internal wounding was excellent, vitals destroyed 150kg (330lb) deer 300 RUM (and magnum family) Range inside 300 yards Conventional soft point (Interlock / Gameking), SST or A-Max of 180-208 grains Bullet impacts chest, produces hydrostatic shock, instant coma, followed by death. Inspection of carcass reveals internal wounding was excellent, vitals destroyed I am looking at hunting with the right conditions 700-1000y+ with the right set up it will be my number one goal Thanks for your Time Mr Foster Mr Hunt |
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