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> Long action 308
Long action 308
@ 09:02 am (GMT) |
Nicholas HuttonHi all,Apologies if this has been covered somewhere else. After reading all of Nathans books and looking at all the discussions and worries about long enough magazine length it sounds like a good idea to build a rifle around a long action. I'm about to buy a custom action from the States and figure it would be a good idea to get a long action with a bolt that has the snaller boltface so I can run a long action 308. This should give me plenty of room to play with cartidge length (and rechamber for magnums down the track if I get 2 bolts). Is my logic right here or is this a dumb idea? Thanks in advance for any help. |
Replies
@ 02:46 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Long action 308Nicholas - I'm not sure if I understand the concept you are going for, I think I do, but keep this in mind when you read this. My first thought was that if you were in a "situation" where a follow up shot was necessary, you may end up short stroking the bolt. Being creatures of habit, you may interpret the fact that the empty being ejected meant it was time to slam home the next one, when in fact your bolt hasn't been retracted far enough to pick it up. I'm probably way off base here, so if this isn't a scenario that would occur, just ignore this. |
@ 03:55 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: Long action 308Get yourself a .30/06. |
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@ 06:09 pm (GMT) |
Nicholas HuttonRe: Long action 308Thanks for the replies guys. It seems like the short cycling bolt would be something overcome with a bit of practice and range time. I understand what you're saying and it's something I've thought of but would be more user error and not a problem caused by running a 308 in a long action.In terms of getting a 30.06, that's kind of my point. With a long action I could get it chanbered for 308, 30.06, 300 win mag or anything below or in between. Depending on what I wanted to do in the future, doesn't getting a long action with the two bolts means I can chamber the rifle in anything between 243 and up to (but not including) 338 magnum while having the larger magazine length for the smaller cartridges? |
@ 06:43 pm (GMT) |
Chris MurphyRe: Long action 308You won't need to play round with case length with a 308 they are easy to load for. And as for down the track you would be far better off saving yourself some head aches by save some money up and building another rifle or buy one or if money is an issue sell the 308 and up grade. |
@ 07:22 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Long action 308Hi Nicolas, as Chris said, the .308 is easy to load for. There is no need to seat long. This merely causes other problems as highlighted in the reloading book. I have not advised running the .308 in long actions in the book series, quite the opposite.It is common to run into feeding issues if putting short cartridges into long actions. Some cartridge / action combo's are easier to get away with than others. Magazine and feed rail width is yet another issue (standard / mag / ultra mag). What I would prefer to see, is for you to be clear in your own mind as to which cartridge or cartridges you want (see method selection in Cartridges book including Back work your project). Then choose your action accordingly. You may find that a two gun battery suits you best such as a .308 as a hack and a magnum which you shoot less for the sake of barrel life, but still practice with. If you cannot decide then as Bryan said- set yourself up with a .30-06 and be done with it. That puts you somewhere between the economy and barrel life of the .308, the reach of a magnum and with great versatility. |
@ 04:55 am (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: Long action 308Hi NicolasI don't think you are going to have problems with a custom longer action short stroking as IMO it would throw out the empty at the longer length, hmmm I am an advocate of using longer than sammi length magazines as I do believe it is much better to load close to the lands which is better explained than I could ever at this link below http://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/COAL.pdf I must also say I don't think there is only one way to skin a cat, two of my most accurate rifles have a jump of around 4mm because thats what the rifles like 
this is my 222 10 shots at 200m with 4mm jump, so it is possible its just I like to set a rifle up so you can touch the lands if that's what the rifle likes. many people ask me what jump to use and my answer is always ask the rifle it wont lie to you. a tikka 308 I have set up recently has a tight 72mm mag length, the 165gr sst touches the lands at 74mm but to seat the projectile in the case just above the do-nut area is 75.48mm, lots of room for growth, I ground the bolt stop and the owner has bought an aftermarket 30-06 mag so he can load out to just before the lands, I don't disagree with Nathan or anyone else's opinion on this I do believe being able to seat the projectile out can give the rifle the best possible chance to not be mediocre. this works for me, good luck cheers mark |
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@ 05:43 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Long action 308The trouble is, if you seat a .308 long and the bullet sits way out into the neck, it is very easy to bump the ammo out of concentricity. This can occur in the field depending on ammo holder or it can be affected by feed ramp lift. Many times a bloke will ring in with .308 woes after seating to the lands. Each time I offer the same advice and each time the results are the same, an improvement. If need be, the .308 can also be re-timed by seating even deeper. To achieve the results you are achieving Mark, the ammo must be highly concentric and then remain concentric during loading feeding or unloading operations. This is a trickier affair both during reloading and cycling. Neck tension also plays a role here. The looser the neck, the greater the potential problems. Target shooters may opt for a short throat just to avoid all ills. The close jump can allow for a very loose neck which also settles ES. Forum member Bob for example, has a Palma chamber for close seating. A hunter can run into problems by making up ammo that works well at the bench (single feed dumping) but then for no apparent reason, appears to lose accuracy during field work.As for running a .308 in a Tikka 06 magazine, this is a single feed magazine. If Nicholas buys a custom, it will likely be a double stack box mag. The box mag may even have a window cut. These factors are not based on my opinion, they are based on experience. I do not doubt your results Mark, however Nicholas asked about possible pitfalls with a custom so these are what I supplied. Hope that helps offer an explanation as to why I made the above suggestions. 
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@ 05:58 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Long action 308I should have mentioned Mark, that like you I would prefer to seat close whenever possible. But some cartridges just aren't optimally designed for this approach. The more you work on rifles and deal with shooters, the more trends / common problems you see.In my experience, the higher the velocity, the more a rifle can behave in a finicky manner and the more controls we need. The lower the velocity, the easier it gets (as per Chris's comment). This can also help explain why it is possible to get a .30-30 shooting well enough, regardless of the less than ideal lever action platforms. Hope that helps explain my madness. |
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@ 07:41 am (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: Long action 308thanks for the reply Nathansome real gems of info came out in your response to my opinion in this discussion and I agree with you wholeheartedly with my real life experiences that are in no way as broad as yours, my reply is from my experiences with trying to get the most out of a rifle from the start, as you said Nathan that like me you would prefer to seat the bullet close when possible, so when putting together a custom rifle, or setting up a factory rifle why not make it so you can seat quality high bc projectiles for long range out to where they should be, I do understand about concentricity issues and because of budget have always had to learn how to do things myself eg: alter feed ramp, rails ect for smoother straight feeding, I am a bit of a jack of some trades and master of none, and still learning just so you understand this is my 222 
it is an original 1967 601 brno tweaked using a lot of your methods thanks again cheers mark |
@ 09:18 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Long action 308I like having options later with the LA.Big dollars can be lost if you want to build a LA having to sell the SA and start again, especially on a custom. Having the option to later rechamber to say an 06AI is a big plus should you out grow the 308. I'm currently building a LA 260rem, having options for seating and/or rechambering is high on my build list requirements. The 308 excells with jump, though if you end up trying a 208 or similar big slippery vld the longer mag would also be a plus. the short cycling could be an issue but training should take care of that. |
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@ 06:43 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Long action 308"I don't think you are going to have problems with a custom longer action short stroking as IMO it would throw out the empty at the longer length, hmmm "Not trying to be the devil's advocate here, so I measured the difference in bolt travel between the point of ejection and the point of bolt stop on my custom. There is 1-3/8" from ejection to stop. It's not something I would want to deal with in a "hunter". There are too many critters trying to eat you. |
@ 01:05 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Long action 308Get a Lee Enfield if you want to cycle the bolt fastest.! I have never understood the LA vs SA debate . In a fire fight! Grab bolt yank it back, slam it forward, point, BANG! Repeat till you or it's dead! While there's lead in the air there's hope? Don't freeze on the spot either be aware of your position and where to move to. Plan ahead before you get shooting. I do the eating. Not them! |
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@ 04:11 am (GMT) |
mark whiteleyRe: Long action 308Quote: "I don't think you are going to have problems with a custom longer action short stroking as IMO it would throw out the empty at the longer length, hmmm "
Not trying to be the devil's advocate here, so I measured the difference in bolt travel between the point of ejection and the point of bolt stop on my custom. There is 1-3/8" from ejection to stop. It's not something I would want to deal with in a "hunter". There are too many critters trying to eat you. a good response Paul it opens up more questions into this discussion, for instance "why would a long action be more prone to short stroking than a shorter action"?, I really don't think it would be as a short stroke is more a dysfunction of the shooter and not the action. it should also be brought up about what actions are prone to short stroking by the inexperienced shooter who needs to learn how to cycle the bolt with authority. basically it is the push feed type with a plunger type ejector that kicks the spent case out of the action as soon as it clears the ejection port, but with my favourite type of action "the m98 control round feed" the extractor claw extracts the fired case which is not ejected until it comes clear to the rear of the action and contacts the ejector blade with the bolt behind the next round ready to pick up and feed doing away with the problem of short stroking after ejecting the empty case and is why control round feed actions are recommended for hunting bitey critters as well as being able to load the chamber upside down, this would be the custom action I myself would like if funds were there 
a Defiance machine custom action, its good to dream anyway cheers mark |
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@ 05:20 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Long action 308Without a doubt, the short stroke is a function of the operator. There is no question on that regard, after all the bolt does not operate itself.As to why this portion of the discussion originated, it was probably based on a very poorly informed assumption on my part that because of the nature of the original post, the individual requesting the information was looking for opinions on the pros and cons of integrating an action into a dual role, for which it was not originally intended. There will be drawbacks, not necessarily flaws, with which the original poster was not aware, and to that end was the reason for my comment on the short stroke scenario. When hunting the orneries, obviously the best action is one that can be cycled the fastest in the hands of an experienced handler. But not all of us have had the benefit of facing an adversary that is intent on either biting us or stomping us, or both, and knowing that in such a situation that all the experience and training that have been acquired throughout our long and colourul life will come into play at the right moment. Again, probably being based on a poorly informed assumption, I saw the bolt action as a means of acquiring a level of accuracy, unheard of in other styles of barrelled actions, but not as one to be relied on in a "situation". Not because a high mechanical failure rate, nor as one prone to be difficult to operate, even if for some reason one is upside down, but more for the fact of the decided time lapse before getting that sometimes very important second round down the tube, when there isn't time to think, when there isn't time to reload. And as you said earlier, "IMO". |
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@ 07:42 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Long action 308My concern is having the rounds pop when feeding forwards. I have seen this a few times now (push and control feed). A magnum action is ordered, but with standard bolt face. Ammo 'popping out' can be as a result of the rails, mag box or the follower. A lot of ills can be fixed via the follower, in some cases even swapping out with a follower from another brand of rifle.I guess the short answer would be to ask the custom shop operator if he could please cycle some .308 ammo through the long action. They may even supply a spare follower if this is the only issue. Paul mentioned short stroking just as a thought, he also lives in bear country so he likes to have his ducks in a row. I think we are all clear on the need for good habits. I see short stroking mostly among newbies. Slightly off topic- As for speed of bolt cycling versus semi or lever's etc, I think people live in a fantasy when it comes to rifles. You simply have to know your rig and be practised. When the shit gets really heavy, our brain changes gear quite a bit. One can empty out a 4 or 5 shot bolt action magazine very quickly and without any prefrontal cortex input as the lower reptillian section of the brain takes over. However, due to the fact that this lower / rear section of the brain blocks higher functions, it must have ingrained practice with tasks that normally require a measure of analytical reasoning (pre-frontal cortex). The Amygdela, reptillian brain and entire vegas structure change everything. If we are practiced, we can now cycle a bolt action with enough time to take in everything we need to know about what is going on in front of us and respond as necessary. A bigger problem would be a freeze response or - an entire shut down response (prepare to eject) in which 70% of the brain and body functions shut down in preparation for death. Having a semi auto would not help in either situation. Though at this last stage, we may no longer care. The info we take in during danger also changes like the frame rate of a camera. One moment we are a dopey slow to load phone camera, the next we are a Canon 7D, processing info at many frames per second. One night I was working at a big club. I was up on a stage area, then noticed all of the young doorman we had hired had buggered off. So I went to the door to check why. I got to the door and then looking back in I see a bunch of patched gang members. So the young guys lost their lolly and let the gang in. I could not remove the gang on my own and also, its a shit sandwich to let someone in, then after they buy a beer, to say they can't drink it. I checked my watch, 15 minutes till closing. So I waited. The gang then came out but with full handles of beer. So very politely I said to the first guy, sorry sir, you cannot take that handle, you'll need to finish up (cops get pretty annoyed if we let punters walk the streets with handles). He replies - F off. So with my left hand I flipped the handle in his hand which is easy enough to do, breaking the grip. In reply, he launches a punch. Now I had already seen the writing on the wall here, so some of my higher brain functions were gone, yet I was now a 7D processor, my whole body structure set for survival. I did not want to fight but would have to do something. When he threw his punch, I punched his fist. I had a good body position (as per the shooting book) so I had good balance. That was how my reptilian brain responded as a way to avoid punching his person, causing a major insult to the gang and creating a no-win 6 on 1 situation (prepare to eject). This knocked him over into the next guy who fell onto the next guy who managed to catch the pair of them (what were the chances of that). I saw his fist in slow motion- thats a key point. Note also an executive decision but without pre-frontal reasoning, a completely different kind of processing. But try doing it during a training session and 99% chances are, it won't work, plus you would hurt your knuckles and your partners knuckles if not gloved up. You would not even call this a 'reasonable' line of defense. But with a complete change in sympathetic nervous structure, it worked in that moment, game on. The end result of this was a shock effect. The gang walked away. The whole thing was very odd to say the least. Its not a story of winning, nobody won anything. Its a story of survival. And what we do to survive differs a vast deal from what we think we might do. |
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@ 08:12 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Long action 308Interesting description of the brain activity when the crunch comes down. Never knew why, but a guy learns more here than just gun stuff. This would explain why the gent next to me cycled three rounds from the mag to the chamber to the ground with never having once pulled the trigger. Neurons were definitely not firing on all cylinders that day.And yes, Hollyweird has given us so many misconceptions when it comes to shooting. Lever actions from the hip, full auto spray, etc. Makes a guy wonder sometimes if the producers even care about reality. And as for the ducks, yes, I do like them neatly lined up and ready. It takes nothing to move from the front trigger to the rear one, and you're loaded for bear. |
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@ 08:47 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Long action 308Sorry, this is way off topic but anyway- If you watch some branches of the U.S military, they are vocally very loud. Others may complain during joint training operations, wishing they would shut the hell up for the sake of stealth. The trouble is, the speech center of the brain is a part of the pre-frontal cortex, located over the left brow. The more we vocalize under pressure the better as this keeps a link between the major areas of the brain, right down to the brain stem, allowing for greater functioning under pressure.Vocalizing is also a major point in the training techniques of Geoff Thompson (Animal Day, 3 Second Fighter, Real Punching). We also see this in Karate training but these days, it is given less play. Sometimes, if we do not vocalize, we tend to self implode under pressure as the pathways shut down. Worst case is as I said earlier- prepare to eject. This (catatonic response) is why a woman may feel doubly terrible after being raped "I just lay there, why didn't I fight back?". When hunting, we never vocalize so this is where we need harsh drilling if hunting in potentially dangerous situations. Cycle and eject is quite common, especially among new hunters if the safety is left on. |
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@ 10:23 pm (GMT) |
Nicholas HuttonRe: Long action 308Hi all,Thanks for all the information, it's answered a lot of questions! I understand what you're saying regarding choosing a cartridge and being done with it Nathan. This idea kind of springs from that to be honest. The end state i'm looking for is a custom rifle in 300 Win Mag. This is an uneducated decision though having little to no experience and being based on cartridge characteristics outlined in your books and website vs what type of shooting I want to do. Also knowing my limitations in shooting and the reloading and the requirement for me to practice I was hoping to get the rifle I want to end up with in terms of action, trigger, stock etc. but chambered in 308. I was thinking this would allow me to practice shooting with a cartridge that is still effective but requires that I learn the necessities of shooting and corrections along with reloading. Then, once I am comfortable and, like you mentioned and thinking of barrels in terms of them being a consumable, having the rifle re-barreled in the desired 300 Win Mag. This way I am familiar with the rifle, and thinking in terms of muscle memory and instinctive response, have built good practices in terms of shooting positioning and cycling movements. Plus it allows me to do my practice with a good quality rifle rather than having to get a cheap 308 to bash around and, when the time comes to move onto 300 Win Mag (if this is still what I want after some more experience) upgrading with just the cost of a new barrel to worry about rather than a complete rifle. In terms of a longer cycling time, I agree that it will be a practice thing. Really though, I can't see a huge difference in cycling time given that we're really just talking about moving the bolt a small amount of extra difference and, most importantly, the rifle won't be used in a combat situation where it might actually make a difference to get shooting again a fraction of a second faster. Hopefully i'm on the right track with these thought processes. I spoke to the manufacturers on the Defiance Machine action i'm looking at and they have assured me the action side will work fine in terms of chambering the 308 but that I will probably have to modify magazines and their feed lips to stop rounds from popping out. I figure the safest way would be to get a couple of magazines that I would use specifically with the 308 and a couple more to use with the 300 Win Mag after rebarreling. Regarding concentricity issues with reloading and bullet seating, coupled with my complete inexperience, i'll certainly be reloading as per manual instructions rather that getting fancy with bullet seating depth. When talking about having a longer magazine I was more specifically referring to using the longer, higher BC bullets out there. Hopefully i'm on the right track with these thoughts! Thanks again for all the information guys! |
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