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> A Question Regarding .308 Win. and Whitetails
A Question Regarding .308 Win. and Whitetails
@ 03:38 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeHello everyone,I have been trying to make a decision on one type of ammo to use for deer hunting. Ranges in yards are as close as 20, a max of 120, and an average of 75.This is going to be factory loads only for now. The rifle has a 20" barrel. The top contender is the Winchester Super-X 180s, the performance noted in the knowledge base and elsewhere seems like what I'm looking for, they're cheap, and widely available. Another consideration is Hornady Superformance 165 grain SST's, though they cost about 50% more here. Cost isn't really a big factor, just something worth noting. What I'm wondering is if you think that the Winchester rounds mentioned will be a good choice from th 20" barrel, and if you guys have any other recommendations for a round that performs approximately as follows: Full penetration at heavy quartering angles on deer that weigh (live) from 150lbs. to 200lbs, and as much internal damage as possible. |
Replies
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@ 03:46 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsA couple things to add:I often take a rear lung shot if the animal is broadside, so I would like the rounds to be able to produce enough shock/fragmentation to be effective with that shot placement. Rounds used in the past and their performance: Super-X 150's: Very good results with rear lung shots, but not enough penetration to guarantee a large exit wound. Winchester PowerMax Bonded 150's: Excellent performance inside of 50 yards. At around 100 yards they have adequate penetration but didn't produce the wide wound channels I'd like and weren't good with broadside rear lung shots. |
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@ 03:48 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsOne last thing, there are occasionally deer that weigh well over 200 pounds. A mature buck in this area will often be 225lbs. + in live weight. |
@ 04:12 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsBest you read Nathan's book on this, or at least read the .308 article in his knowledge base.I have shot dozens of wt deer from close to far and his articles as well as the books cover it all very well. |
@ 09:43 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsWe lean to the 160 odd weights in 308 Ryan though my son has had good results with the his 150 grain starting loads. The weight/speed/recoil balance of the 168's in both his 308 & now 06 is terrific.Most of these deer have been running whilst hound hunting so all sorts of angles & sizes. If you want to keep that shot placement the 165 Superformance load would be a good choice. |
@ 05:53 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and Whitetailshi Ryana lot of my friends that don't reload are using federal blue box with great success. i was a fan of the hornady whitetail before i got into reloading. i see hornady to a 178gr eld-x precision hunter load if you can afford it and it shoots well that would be a very handy ammo indeed. other then that you could try the wincherster deer seanson xp or browning bxr, both are pretty much same projectile but the browning is just slightly heavier weight. the other option is if you only shooting the one caliber is to get a lee loader and a set of scales and of course Nathans reloading book |
@ 08:15 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and Whitetailswell my vote goes to your first choice. Ive only shot the one red stag with them and that was at about 40 yards but Ive never seen such a great blood trail for the 5-10 yards he went before pileing up in a heap dead.they dont boot at the other end either...seems more of a shove than a kick. |
@ 06:36 am (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsI love the 180 grain Super X. Are you in the U.S. or somewhere else? If you're in the U.S. it would be good to consider DRT Terminal Shock. They're really good. Nathan has a video showing their use in a 308. |
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@ 12:51 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsRafe, One bullet I have never had fail me on whitetail and mule deer is the Speer 165 grain Boattail Spftpoint.In my .308 Winchester it gives me 2650fps and I have killed animals from 10 feet out to 650 yards with it. Raking shots in thick bushes did not fail me either. I have never been a fan of factory ammo myself, however one product you might want to check out is the Hornady High Performance 180 grain SST. It will anchor pretty much any animal hit with good shot placement. I have shot 250 pound mule deer in thick bush as well as elk and moose with angled shots taking out the heart lung area from close out to 200 yards and have not found any issue at all. By the way, my rifle shoots the handloads as well as this factory ammo into sub 1/2 inch at 100 yards consistently. Time to go do it and not overthink matters. |
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@ 12:52 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsSorry Ryan got your name wrong above. |
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@ 12:52 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsSorry Ryan got your name wrong above. |
@ 01:57 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsHi Ryan, I generally avoid these questions because if the person cannot make up his mind based on the KB info, its hard to help- just adds more info to the overload.You are going to have to pick one factory load and see it through. If you want soft, go heavy. The 180gr PP is a perfect example of this, a light jacket, notched, frangible, yet moving slowly to aid penetration. Its BC is low but you have no great need for a high BC. The 165gr SF load is a compromise, moderate to high speed, high BC, a mix of weight shedding and retention. It is the middle ground and a good starting point for most people. The Extreme point loads are exactly as described, they chase one extreme- expansion. Big entry, little to no exit. These are a remodel of the Silvertip that was once so very popular, especially when we had many low velocity factory loads. My research so far indicates that it is best to adopt as much weight as possible when using this bullet. Choose one, see how this fits you. Adjust later based on your findings on local game and your individual hunting methods. I hope that helps and does not confuse the issue further. |
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@ 10:16 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsQuote: Hi Ryan, I generally avoid these questions because if the person cannot make up his mind based on the KB info, its hard to help- just adds more info to the overload.
That seems like a perfectly fair point to me, Nathan. What I ended up buying is Remington 180 grain round nose. I didn't realize that the local store had these in stock, and I think it'll be interesting to try them. If they work well after this year I'll likely buy several more boxes since I fear the round nose will be gone soon. The old school design is appealing to me and since everything is so close range I don't see any major disadvantage to the terrible BC. I'm going to take at least two deer this year if the opportunity presents itself, however, I often do the field dressing with nobody around to take pictures, but I'll try and document the results as best as I can if anyone is interested. I examined a handful of the PP 180 grain rounds and they appeared to have very inconsistent seating depths. They varied from having no cannelure exposed to having the entire cannelure exposed, and that kinda bothers me because I'm pretty analytical and a little bit OCD. Then I looked at the Remington round noses and they were much more consistent in seating depth, there was only a slight of difference in the amount of cannelure visible. |
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@ 07:41 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsUnfortunately, Winchester has been behind in production for a few years now. I believe it started with Obama coming in to power but instead of eventually catching up, Winchester got further and further behind. This also affected their ability to maintain any surplus stock and is therefore the reason why Winchester brass is currently more difficult to obtain.Good luck with the round nose load. Quite true, such loads are becoming harder to find. Impact velocities may be low, Rem is one of the slower brands and it shows in a 20" barrel and then further down range with the round nose design. But the load will be clean killing. Speed of killing (or anchoring) will depend on shot placement. Rear lung shots may run some distance so do try to avoid aiming too far behind the shoulder - keep it tight. Otherwise, the round nose will do its best to transfer energy. Certainly worth observing before this type of load is no longer available. |
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@ 10:04 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsNathan,The lower velocity was the one concern I had. Remington claims 2620 vs. the 2700 in the Winchester ammo. I wouldn't be surprised if the muzzle velocity is around 2,450 from my rifle. I did some rough estimates of trajectory based on that muzzle velocity and a BC of .270, and at my maximum range (125 yards) it would be about 2,075 fps, which is quite low. However, the trajectory keeps the bullet within about 1" of my 75 yard zero distance at any range I can shoot at. I think you're right about potentially slow kills with lung shots that only pass through the rib cage and not any heavy bone or muscle. I'm going to avoid rear lung shots because of that, especially if they're farther away than around 25 yards. I'm perfectly fine with putting the projectile through the shoulder or in line with the front edge of the front leg to promote faster killing. That shot placement may actually be a better choice all around since I have a slim chance of anchoring game with hydrostatic shock using a 20" .308 anyway. I'm going to do that with broadside shot opportunities. I also would assume that a frontal shot through the center of the chest (animal facing directly at me) would be no problem with these rounds. The only thing that I'm unsure about is a quartering away angle. I have a couple of questions regarding this ammo: - Is it possible to anneal the bullet while it's in a loaded case, and would that have any significant effect on terminal performance? I realize that nobody is going to recommend that I do that for safety and liability reasons, but hypothetically I think it could be done. - This is a general question that isn't specific to this ammo. On a quartering away shot, does the longer path that the bullet takes to reach vitals make up somewhat for an animal that might be too light or lean for a given bullet? |
@ 11:13 am (GMT) |
Jonathan KittermanRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsJust browse over the .30-30 section in the knowledge base. You won't be too far off and performance should be around that or better, depending on your velocity. |
@ 11:20 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsAge annealing is perhaps the most appropriate route there for bullets in cases. Flame annealing is just asking for trouble. I agree it probably could be done but you could probably also swim laps with a shark in the pool too. |
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@ 01:09 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsThe ammo grouped well out of my rifle. Did some paper punching at 75 yards to check the zero and had no issues. Then backed up to 90 yards and shot some bowling pins while seated and using a monopod. It seems just fine as far as accuracy goes. Perhaps the round nose design is helpful in allowing the 1-12" twist rate to stabilize the 180 grain bullets, since the round noses are shorter than spire points of the same weight. I will say that I was pretty impressed with what it did to the bowling pins at that range, deer bones should be no problem at all, even the ball joints.I also noticed something about the ammo. The lead on the tips is quite a bit lighter and chalky-looking than the lead on some Federal 180gr. .30-06 I compared it to. After noticing this, I looked up the approximate age of the ammo and discovered that it's at least 8 years old and possibly as old as twenty years. The packaging design was used by Remington from '97 to '09. Would that amount of time, assuming the ammo was stored in a consistent environment of probably ~70 degrees Fahrenheit, be enough to significantly soften the bullet from it's as-loaded/when-new condition? |
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@ 04:52 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsRyan, I have a heavy barelled .308 with a 1:12 twist. It is a Model 700P LTR rifle with a Sightron 2.5 to 17.5 scope on it. Last summer I bought some Sierra 180 grain Round Nose bullets for closer in bush shots on moose and elk, and loaded them using Winchester 748 powder. This rifle normlly stumbles with 180 grain spitzers, so to my surprise I ended up shooting three three shot groups that were well under 3/8 inch at 100 yards and one 5 shot group at 200 yards that gave me a 1/2 inch group.The load was a fairly stiff one, but I would guess the shape of the nose has something to do with how well in shoots, as my Remington 700 in 7X57 does the same thing with these bullets.. |
@ 05:03 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsBowling pins don't have skin and muscles full of blood vessels and rest of anatomy covering them. Chuck them powdery tipped rounds away or keep them for small critters that you want to vaporize with grenade type effect! Read the 308 Knowledge base on here and buy what Nathan suggests. It's pretty simple when all you have to do is follow the Good n sincere advice. Id tell you to go with a Partition bullet suited to range and game weight.....http://shop.nosler.com/trophy-grade-308-win-165-grain-partition-ammo-20ct.html# https://fusiontables.googleusercontent.com/fusiontables/embedviz?viz=CARD&q=select+*+from+1C5o2xk_hWmBsTsTUWwoZ262XZOtOsNloF2QDW28+where+col4+%3D+60053+order+by+col0+asc&tmplt=1&cpr=1 |
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@ 06:07 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsQuote: Bowling pins don't have skin and muscles full of blood vessels and rest of anatomy covering them.
I didn't say they did. A deer doesn't have 1/8" plastic molded over lathe-formed wood. What's your point? Quote: Chuck them powdery tipped rounds away or keep them for small critters that you want to vaporize with grenade type effect! It's a 180 grain bullet with a heavier than average jacket, being used on deer of 180lbs. - 250lbs. I don't know how it's going to perform, and since I like to learn and want to actually know things instead of assume to know things, I'm going to try and kill two or three deer and use various shot placements and observe the results. Quote: Read the 308 Knowledge base on here I have read that article and about a dozen others. I've also read some of them several times. Quote: ... buy what Nathan suggests. He didn't suggest anything. He just notes what he has observed and leaves the choice open to the reader. Which leads me to believe that he has some level of knowledge with regards to teaching, because good teachers generally provide information and justification for it. They don't tell people what to do or what to think. Quote: It's pretty simple when all you have to do is follow the Good n sincere advice. I don't blindly follow anything at all. Nothing. In fact I have often wondered if Nathan can provide justification for some of the claims he makes, mainly because the knowledgebase is full of claims without many citations or evidence. I just trust that if someone makes a website like this and publishes multiple books and videos, they're at least doing the best they can to actually know things and support their claims. |
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@ 06:54 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsMic drop. |
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@ 07:44 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsWell as long as the animals you experiment on don't suffer. Go ahead. I simply answered your question. Honestly and to the point, with what I thought.....might help...... Leading by example is way better than telling someone what, when, where or how to do stuff unless they ask of course?Ryan....... "Don't ask questions if you're not prepared to hear the answers"......! You'll find out that Nathans years of research where done in the interest of animal welfare and repeatable results. Not for Ego money or fame. Have a great day, keep smiling and good luck with your Whitetail hunting |
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@ 03:35 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsQuote: I simply answered your question.
No, you absolutely didn't. Not a single thing you said addressed any of my questions in the previous post I made. You strawmanned me, put words in my mouth, and made a bunch of assumptions about various things instead of asking for clarification. And it all backfired on you because I'm way smarter, way more confrontational, and way better at logical arguments than you thought. So instead of getting to belittle someone to make yourself feel superior, you got your entire statement deconstructed and exposed for the ridiculous, sad, drivel that it is. And if you continue to say dishonest things to try and cover your ass instead of actually owning up and taking responsibility like a real man does, I'm more than happy to keep ripping your statements apart and letting everyone see what they really are. If they couldn't see it already. Quote: Ryan....... "Don't ask questions if you're not prepared to hear the answers"......!
Dude, just give up. I mean it's like you're assuming that I can't go back and read the chain of messages or something. You didn't answer a single question from my previous post. |
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@ 07:37 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsQuote........Hello everyone, I have been trying to make a decision on one type of ammo to use for deer hunting. Ranges in yards are as close as 20, a max of 120, and an average of 75.This is going to be factory loads only for now. The rifle has a 20" barrel. I suggested (by posting links) to using Nosler factory Trophy Grade 308 Win 165 grain Partition Ammo Ryan it would appear that you've "lost your biscuit". ...... and in doing so told me what too do (give up) ! Thanks for your help and fantastic advice. You are so right. Remember that the only thing "worserer" than good advice...... Is not listening to it......... |
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@ 08:41 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: A Question Regarding .308 Win. and WhitetailsI already made a decision on ammo over a week ago now. I asked three other questions in subsequent posts and you didn't address any of them. The question you quoted had been a closed and settled matter for 7 or 8 days. |
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