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> Growing Knowledge = Changing Perspectives
Growing Knowledge = Changing Perspectives
@ 05:26 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeFellas,The rifle I'm currently using for deer hunting is a Browning X-Bolt Micro Hunter in .308 Winchester. It was purchased in 2010, this is the 6th season of use. The rifle is quite nicely made, and has been a consistent sub-MOA gun when shot off sandbags using various factory ammo. It's got a 20" barrel. Currently wearing a Leupold FX-II 4x33mm scope with German #4 reticle. It's strongpoints are: - Ergonomics and design of the stock (very mild felt recoil and a great grip and forend design) - Short overall length of 40" (easy handling in ground blinds) - Great accuracy, certainly enough for my purposes - Fast-cycling action with lots of scope clearance, very nice for gloved hands - Glass-bedded action and free-floated barrel It's weaknesses: - Low velocities which usually give delayed kills beyond about 50 yards - Quite difficult to shoot offhand due to light weight of 7lbs with scope and sling - Walnut stock is susceptible to damage from the varying moisture and temperature levels I encounter while hunting Because of these weaknesses, I have decided that it is not the best choice for the most common situation I find myself in when hunting, which is sitting in a permanent ground blind I built, with shots ranging from 25 to 125 yards. Where I do see this rifle being extremely useful is at ranges of about 50 yards and in, wearing a decent open-style red dot sight. Deer drives, brushy areas with no visibility beyond 75 yards, etc. The low velocities wouldn't matter if using a light and tough bullet like a Barnes 130 TTSX at those ranges, and the size of the gun is about right for a compromise between size/handling and power. It's a near-ideal brush gun for me. What I would like to try as a dedicated stand-hunting rifle is something with a 26" heavy barrel, and chambered for a cartridge that can keep suitable bullets above 2600 fps for 175-200 yards. These parameters were chosen because I want the added stability of the long and heavy barrel for offhand shooting, and I want hydrostatic shock on deer for the fastest possible kills at any range I encounter them. The longer overall length will require a change in technique when shooting from blinds, and may be somewhat slower on target until I get used to handling the rifle, but I see this as a very minor issue, if it's even a real issue at all. Cartridges and subsequent bullet styles up for consideration for the rifle platform I described are: - .30-06 with 150 grain bonded bullets like the InterBond, Olin Power Max, etc. - 7mm RM with 160 grain Partitions, 162 grain SST, or a tough 150 grain bullet like the InterBond - .300 WM or .300 WSM using relatively soft 180 grain bullets like the Olin Power Point, Swift A-Frame, Partition, etc. I currently have located a used Remington 700 Long Range in 7mm RM for a decent price, but I might try and find one in .30-06 I'm fine with the 7mm RM, but as an homage to Hathcock, cheaper ammo, and the ability to directly compare the performance of identical .308" projectiles at muzzle velocities of about 350 fps more than I can get with the Browning, I think the .30-06 would be the better choice from that platform. To be honest, I mostly posted this as a way of clarifying my thoughts through writing and also to help other people who might be trying to make similar decisions. However, I would enjoy any feedback on the content of the post. Does this seem like a reasonable assessment of my situation and needs to you guys? |
Replies
@ 06:39 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesHi Ryan, could you please tell me (1) what body weights you are dealing with (2) What your current load consists of. If its a hand load, please include the brass used and powder type plus charge. (3) An example of previous shot placement versus speed of kill / distance the animal ran.Thanks. |
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@ 07:39 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesNathan,1. Body weights are between 150 and 250 pounds, with the majority of animals between 175 and 225 pounds. 2. This year I'm using Remington 180 grain round nose, muzzle velocity is likely ~2,400 fps. Previously I had used Olin's PowerMax bonded 150 grain hollow points. Also the Power Point 150's 3. The 180gr round nose have only taken one deer, shot placement was in line with the front edge of the front leg, attempting to destroy the autonomic plexus. Range was about 90 yards. Deer collapsed instantly due to the bullet breaking both shoulders, it attempted to move off using only the rear legs but did bleed out and expire in 30-60 seconds. The PowerMax have taken three deer, two of the shots were about 100-110 yards, hitting bone both times (one was a nearly direct frontal shot, the other was quartering towards me at about a 45 degree angle). Neither deer made it more than about 30-40 yards, exit wounds on both were about 3/4" to 1" and the vitals had a large track through them from the bullet. The third deer was a broadside shot, a little high and behind the shoulder. Deer collapsed from hydrostatic shock and did not attempt to rise, it died in about a minute or less. This is what I'd like to have happen as often as possible. The Power Points have taken several deer, can't actually recall the number, but it was before I had started to seriously take notes on this stuff. What I do remember is very thorough wounding of the vitals using a rear lung shot, but no exit wounds and meager blood trails as a result. No hydrostatic shock, although none were inside of 50 yards. I don't recall any of the deer going very far after being hit. |
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@ 10:03 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesOK, it sounds as though your past loads / shot placement are working OK. It would not take much to improve on this.Realistically, you will find that a lot of .30-06 ammo is only up by 150fps. The .308 is itself quite efficient from a 20" barrel. Further to this, the Hornady 165gr SST SF .308 load will go around 2800fps in your barrel. A generic .30-06 factory or hand load will go the same speed. You would need to use a good SF load in the .30-06 or careful hand loads to surpass the potential of your .308. The .30-06 really comes into its own with heavy pills and careful load development. However the factory SF loads are also quite hard hitting and show some gain in power. You will find that a number of folk on the forum here are content to increase wounding potential and therefore fast bleeding by simply using the 168gr A-MAX / Z-MAX / ELD-M in the .308 as I have written about in the books and shown on our youtube videos. This is one way to optimize your .308. Hornady produce an SF match version of this if you want to try it. I do not generally advise that we become reliant on hydrostatic shock. I do try to utilize this on heavy game but again, one cannot rely on it. If you wish to utilize in a more significant manner, then you may want to look at the 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Win Mag. These will give you .270 like speeds with more bullet weight. I do not recommend the .30-06 for this because it will not produce the specific results you are looking for. It is a different animal and has different strengths. If you want to use the .30-06, you will need to focus on width and depth of wounding as a primary factor as opposed to reliance on the nervous response. You can go with a .30-06 and have your Hathcock rifle, but you will need to change your approach. Regarding gun weights, The basic Sendero / Long range hunter is slightly unwieldy when snap shooting, just a tad on the heavy side (the weight is better with a .358 to .375 bore). It takes a bit to get used to this weight when shooting offhand. Generally speaking, a short heavy barrel is somewhat nicer to use and again, many of my readers would enjoy using a 20" heavy barreled .308 for this type of work, myself included. Nevertheless, there is no point running a 7 or 300 magnum in a short barrel when you are looking to use velocity as a primary shut down factor. On the plus side, a long magnum rifle will allow you to entertain the idea of some long range plinking if that takes your fancy. Which ever way you go, it may be time that you start thinking about hand loading. Your mind is now wanting to experiment so you may want to give yourself full permission to enjoy the hand loading process. This will also allow you to start using trail boss loads for snap shooting practice. Hope that helps a bit. |
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@ 10:15 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesI should also note that I'm not particularly recoil sensitive anymore. I used to be when I was younger, but in the last year now I've begun to apply Vipassana and other mindfulness practices to my shooting, and the results have been very very good. No more flinch, tighter groups, etc. So while I would say that it would be nice to have a cartridge that puts less stress on the rifle and my body, a high-recoiling cartridge and gun isn't something that bothers me within reason. |
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@ 11:46 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesThanks Nathan, I'll take all that on board and process it. |
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@ 01:19 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesPerhaps it would be best to continue to use this rifle until I I find a certain load that provides the kind of performance I find good. Perhaps it doesn't make sense to move on to another platform until I have an adequate understanding of the one I'm currently using. |
@ 06:46 pm (GMT) |
Luke LahdenrantaRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesI thinking it would be a good idea to keep your rifle since at least you know that it's accurate and it works! You can then later on down the line add another rifle, but keep your 308!It seems to me that from what you wrote, the next logical step down the path of rifle loony madness would be to start reloading for yourself. Then you can really start exploring some the bullet choices that interest you from the knowledge base article. It doesn't have to expensive and complicated to get into reloading you could start as simple as I did with a Lee Classic Loader kit for 308. Add a Lee 2nd Edition Reloading manual, and a beam scale and some components and your off to the races. And don't forget to grab a copy of Nathan's book on reloading. I'm not just recommending it because we are here on his forum but he really has laid out a very good and systematic approach for finding a good load. If you just follow along from A to Z you will save yourself maybe years of of head scratching with mistakes, missteps and wasted components, It really is one of the best books on reloading in my library. Oh and plus you can save money reloading.... or at least that's what we tell the new guys! ;) |
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@ 05:06 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesJust to be clear guys, I would never ever sell or trade this Browning. I really do love the rifle and cartridge combination. I haven't needed more than one shot on anything from 150 pounds up to 240 pounds since I switched to this platform from a Savage .243, and it's been very accurate after the first 40-60 rounds I put through it.I did take some pictures this evening during the butchering process and the meat damage and general destruction caused by the bullet was ridiculous. We basically threw away the front quarters. I'll post the pictures at some point this week, but I would say that this load from this rifle is easily capable of killing anything I'd ever see around here, including big bear, with appropriate shot placement. |
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@ 05:25 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesIn essence, my desire for a change in .308 ammo and general rifle and cartridge combinations comes from my curiosity and my love of science and experimentation. |
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@ 06:44 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesYes, it may well be time to consider hand loading Ryan.Thanks for your kind works Luke. |
@ 08:51 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing Perspectiveshi Ryan an interesting post.reloading is great fun and if you like experimenting there's a whole world your let to discover, just be warned it's a hobby in itself. as it appears you have a curious mind like most of us i wonder if it would be worth getting a 358 win after you start reloading. you have seen how a 243 and 308 works, might be worth going to a larger bore to compare |
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@ 04:39 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesThomas, you're right on track with the .358 Winchester. I have considered getting a new barrel for my Savage .243 in that chambering, along with a new stock and some basic accurizing work like using Nathan's bedding compounds. It could be close to ideal for me considering the environment, average ranges, and game weights.I have begun to get a plan together for a decent sturdy bench, a single-stage press, and the other necessary tools. It's really starting to dawn on me that the range of factory ammo available, while adequate in its own way, just isn't comprehensive enough to allow me to satisfy my curiosity. |
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@ 11:38 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesI think a Remington or howa would be ideal to build a 358win onI'm in two minds whether a ruger American is worth building on, on the bright side their 22-250 comes with a 1-10 twist barrel. If your in the USA have a look at Lee anniversary kit on titan reloading, and Lee ultimate die sets And of course Nathans reloading book is a must have. Only thing I can add is a powder trickler is really handy specially when using Lee scales. |
@ 08:23 am (GMT) |
mark yeakelRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesI would think the short action 308 w/ 20" barrel would be ideal for short to moderate range from a ground blind. Better/faster loads are available for it as already mentioned. If you think that its weight is a detriment to accuracy why not add a little weight, put a big expensive/heavy scope on it.Don't underestimate the 243 either for your purpose; it's a good killer on whitetail deer. I gave a factory new one (that I won) to a family member; it was a very accurate short action Weatherby Vanguard with inexpensive scope and mounts. The family member has killed a deer every year since I gave it to him six years ago and every deer he's shot at in that time. He always places it in the chest cavity and it always makes a mess of everything in there and the deer falls after just a few more paces. |
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@ 07:04 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesMark, what I meant specifically by "quite difficult to shoot offhand" is this:Often times the deer show up in areas where the window for shot placement is quite small because of trees, branches, and brush. As an example: A deer comes in at a nearly perpendicular/broadside angle, but the window for shot placement through the brush is only about 4", and that window is 60 yards away, while the deer is 80 yards away. Because of the small window, the best course of action with this particular rifle (or perhaps with any rifle) is to use a rest, which is fortunately an option that's usually possible. But in the same circumstances it's sometimes not a real option to use a rest because I can't position myself and the rifle quickly or stealthily enough to get a shot off. In this case it would be very nice to have a heavier rifle that's easier to hold on target without the use of a rest. I also have a sling on the rifle that I wrap around my forearm and wrist that helps tremendously to stabilize the rifle without using a rest, but this too takes an amount of time and movement that's often not viable. The .243, using Winchester 100gr Power Points, was used successfully for a number of years. However, there were two instances where the performance of the ammunition and cartridge generally was suboptimal: - A not-quite-mature 6 point buck came over the top of a hill about 20 yards away, heavily quartering towards me. I shot, was confident that the shot was good, but the blood trail was so poor as to be justifiably called nonexistent. The deer wasn't found until several days later and the meat was obviously lost. - A very large deer, ~ 205lbs dressed out, that took a total of three rounds through the vitals just behind the shoulder, and a fourth through the head at point blank range, in order to kill it. After these two experiences, I bought a .308 and haven't really considered using the .243 again, though it would be interesting to try different ammo and shot placements. I'm pretty sure both of the above situations could have been drastically different if I had been using ammo that produces deeper penetration, but I didn't understand very much about that sort of stuff back then. |
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@ 07:11 am (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesOn the idea of putting a bigger scope on it to add weight:I had a 3-9x40mm on it for the first few years. It was just way too big for the rifle, it looked odd/disproportionate, and made the rifle feel more top-heavy and poorly balanced. Not to mention I didn't need that much magnification. One thing I'd like to do before next season is to put a Talley or EGW picatinny rail and rings on it so I can mount the scope just a little closer to my eye. |
@ 09:57 am (GMT) |
JOHN HAYSRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesHi Ryan,Looking back at your original post, and having a bit of experience in stand hunting in wooded/brushy country, I would suggest forgetting the scope and switching to a Winchester 94 in .30-30 or better yet a Marlin 1895 in .45-70. Your hunting distances are so short, your field of view so chaotic, that open sights will give you the quickest acquisition. I think the best solution for heavy brush is a “brush gun”. Light projectiles at higher speeds is counter productive. Here are a couple of empirical videos on shooting through rampant vegetation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P5dve7vAY9I https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zCOzNzIkN4M |
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@ 04:12 pm (GMT) |
Ryan NafeRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesMark, I have used an open-sighted rifle for one season, it was my grandpa's Remington 760 in .308. I did kill a doe with it at about 45 yards. The shot was a little far forward and she was quartering away from me, the bullet severed her esophagus and nearby veins and arteries, it was an interesting kill. I haven't managed to replicate that kind of wound again.Iron sights will work for me in conditions where the deer are close, not likely to be obscured by vegetation, and especially if there is snow on the ground. I also have to have a certain level of familiarity with where the bullet impacts in relation to the sights, as this can be dramatically different from one rifle to the next. My eyesight is pretty good (I'm in my mid twenties and in above-average physical shape from a combination of genetics and boxing) so I don't generally have problems using them well. However, I don't ever shoot at an animal unless I am confident that I can put the bullet directly into it without having it hit anything else first. I know its fairly common for people to use heavy and/or wide bullets to shoot through brush and branches to reach game, but I have a very strong aversion to doing it. The problem with open sights for me is that they don't offer the level of precision that I require in order to feel comfortable taking shots in the environments that I usually hunt in. |
@ 03:41 pm (GMT) |
Mike RRe: Growing Knowledge = Changing PerspectivesThinking outside the box I like the 45-70 lever as well, for the short stuff up to 100 meters with a 1-4 Leupold with the right bullet it really can do some damage. Generally don’t bother with the hard cast bullets though. Forsure you could get better results if you started handloading or use the superformance for 308. My friends load the 168 Zmax and they generally have very good results |
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