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Trouble shooting.

20 Dec 2017
@ 03:54 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Hi all. Just a question on case prep.

I am getting different lengths on the cases after prep. My trimmer rod is 51.19mm long but even after just trimming my case length was 50.93mm. Is there a reason this might be the case? Is it the shell holder?

Also from 20 cases my finished lengths after trim and chamfer were between 50.8mm and 50.95mm. Quite a range. Most were 50.87-50.91mm.

Am I being to rough on the chamfer or inconsistent with the shell holder in the drill when I trim? Would love some help all.

Thanks heaps.

Replies

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20 Dec 2017 @ 05:45 pm (GMT)	Quote this Paul Leverman Re: Trouble shooting. Hey Andrew. Not exactly sure what your methods or tools are, but it sounds like a Lee trimmer. If that's the case, I can't help. I've tried to set my RCBS rotary trimmer to get one length for all my cases. I don't think it's possible. The RCBS system uses a collet on the rim/head, and I don't think this is anywhere near accurate enough. If your rim sizes are out by even a couple of thou, the collet will be further out or in, depending on the rim size. How is that going to work? I think as long as you have sufficient concentricity, a few thou here and there won't really matter. But the more proficient loaders may have a different view. You should probably listen to them.
20 Dec 2017 @ 06:29 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Trouble shooting. Cheers Paul. It is indeed a Lee system. Everything is Lee, except the micrometer which is Kincrome. I have a few more cases to practice on. Could be worthwhile just to stop and assess each step? Nonetheless if these results are somewhat typical I won't mind. I don't have the money to spend on more advanced case prep tools at this point. I want excellence but have to be real with the budget. Would be nice to show up some of those guys would say you can't shoot at 600yds without a $2000 rest though.
20 Dec 2017 @ 06:54 pm (GMT)	Quote this Jonathan Kitterman Re: Trouble shooting. You can always just pick up 'junk' brass and practice your technique to be more consistent on the trimming. Do all your cases require trimming or is this the initial processing of virgin brass? You can always consider stuffing more money inside your pikau or rucksack to make it worth $2000. Just concentrate on your own skills and you will get there soon.
20 Dec 2017 @ 07:12 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Trouble shooting. I like that analogy Jonathan. This is once fired brass. Winchester stuff. I plan on using these for my first rod of handloads. I am picking up the projectiles and powder and primers in a month. I am super keen to get it going. It's been too long since I've shot and probably will be about Feb once I can get out again. Fortunately there have been things to keep me busy. Brass prep being once of them. In any case I guess the benefit is that I won't need to worry about trim length for a while. I am stI'll curious on why the trimmer is at 51.19mm but the case length is 50.93 immediately after trimming. One thing I have noticed is that the case gets quite a wobble in the drill on some occasions. Perhas this is an issue?
20 Dec 2017 @ 11:20 pm (GMT)	Quote this mark whiteley Re: Trouble shooting. seriously Andrew try one of these and you will never ever look back http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/products/wilson-brt-case-trimmer-kit-2-with-tin-cutter.html you can get them a lot cheaper second hand from American ebay, perfectly straight and square every time good luck with it regards Mark
21 Dec 2017 @ 01:08 am (GMT)	Quote this Hamish Gibbs Re: Trouble shooting. Hey Andrew does not take long with the Lee just to do by hand, forget the drill and see how you get on. Other thing maybe is have you tried closing your verniers and re measuring the same brass to see if you get the same or if they even zero the same every time? I never had much luck with digital myself. Otherwise just trim by hand and don't measure?
21 Dec 2017 @ 03:53 am (GMT)	Quote this Paul Leverman Re: Trouble shooting. Hamish brings up a good point. I know my cordless drill is nowhere near accurate or true. It wobbles like crazy, mass produced, planned obsolescence. Good for polishing, cleaning, and I do use it with my primer pocket cleaners, but at a very low, controlled speed. I also had a set of electronic verniers that were affected by fluorescent lights. The closer the proximity to the light, the weirder the reading. Gotta love warranty. And yes, it is nice to shoot off of jean covered, sand filled ziplock bags, and outshoot the mega-dollar lay your gun here strap it in and pull the trigger type rests. It's actually quite entertaining to watch how much that rig jumps around. As to an exact measurement for length, I have used re-formed 2.5" magnum brass of various calibres in my Norma. They are sometimes quite a bit short, enough that you could use a tape measure to check them. There doesn't seem to be an issue , so far. (Heavy on the "so far".) Again, I think the concentricity is more to the point. I am not familiar with Kincrome tools. Back in the last century when I was buying tools, I was told that when buying micrometers, anything would do, as they all use the same thread for the spindle. However, I was also told that verniers were hit and miss as to the accuracy, and to buy the best you could afford and then continuously upgrade. If you know anyone in the machining trade, see if you could check your verniers with their 1" and 2" standards. Chances are they will do it for you. This will tell you real quick what level of accuracy your verniers have.
21 Dec 2017 @ 06:30 am (GMT)	Quote this Thomas Kitchen Re: Trouble shooting. hi Andrew if your measuring the guide/stem part of the lee trimmer while its out of the cutter then finding it cuts shorter? pretty sure the stem counter sinks into the cutter a little bit which might be your issue. i use them and have no issue but i don't go over board checking things, i also went to the lee 3 jaw chuck for holding the case, the still wobble a little but they don't come out of centre like the case holders can
21 Dec 2017 @ 09:31 am (GMT)	Quote this Martin Taylor Re: Trouble shooting. With the Lee l find the following (which the guys have mostly already said!). All l have worked with have some runout when held in a drill chuck. Don't fight the runout, let the case move slightly. Slow and steady wins the race, slow!! these are not high speed cutters. Leave a trace of sizing wax in the case mouth. And at times if necessary. adjust the sizing by filing the pin (depth gauge). Make sure the calibre gauge insert is lightly snugged up to the cutter. With the win brass if its factory crimped (often is) be careful where you measure. And yes check the repeatability of your Veriners, if possible try to find some "old school" Mitsitoyo's and learn to read them. Use repeatable pressure when taking a measurement & give the case a wriggle to seat. We have no variation in lengths over 10 different calibres and plenty of sub .5 loads using these trimmers.
21 Dec 2017 @ 09:35 am (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Trouble shooting. Hi Paul, Kincome is a decent quality brand, here in Australia at least. It did come with a calibration chart that shows it is +/- 0.02mm. I have a mate with some Mituoyo (sorry if I misspelt that) brand ones so I will get them checked. I am confident that they are on the money though. Thomas, that's correct. Measuring the mandrel out of the cutter. It is quote hard to measure in place. Perhaps that is the cause of my issue! It is consistent at least. Cheers Hamish, I will give that a go next time around.
21 Dec 2017 @ 10:20 am (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Trouble shooting. Thanks Marty, nailed it as always. Don't fight the wriggle / runout. Repeatable pressure- also when using a mike. Don't fuss too much, she'll shoot straight.
21 Dec 2017 @ 11:36 am (GMT)	Quote this mark whiteley Re: Trouble shooting. Quote: Thanks Marty, nailed it as always. Don't fight the wriggle / runout. Repeatable pressure- also when using a mike. Don't fuss too much, she'll shoot straight. does not make much sense Nathan a tool should do what it is made to do properly without coercion the examples of how to use this trimmer so far really say that this tool does not do the job very well at all, does it, there are better tools it's a not a precise way of doing a really important job in keeping the case mouths square and cases at the correct length, as stated by others especially when you are trying to make the most accurate consistent loads possible the wilson trimmer does it perfectly every time without having to hold your tongue in a certain way or using any coercion it is by far a better tool for the job regards Mark
21 Dec 2017 @ 11:46 am (GMT)	Quote this mark whiteley Re: Trouble shooting. I also forgot to say how can the cases be trimmed to the exact same length every time with this trimmer that uses a pin (depth gauge)? do all the cases used by the guys who say they work fine have the same internal capacity? and no burr from when the flash hole is made? I know they do not, how idiotic regards Mark
21 Dec 2017 @ 12:20 pm (GMT)	Quote this Hamish Gibbs Re: Trouble shooting. He he Mark very amusing, is it possible the pin penetrates the flash hole and seats on the shell holder base rather than internally? Because yes you are correct to lengthen to the internal flash hole would be idiotic in design. For the money I am more than happy with my lee and would put my money into other things before replacing, I think they are a great no bs tool for the starter outa. But thats just me.
21 Dec 2017 @ 12:45 pm (GMT)	Quote this Ed Sybert Re: Trouble shooting. I believe that the Lee trimmer is intended to keep the case mouth from contacting the chamber throat - thus avoiding a pressure increase. The Lee trimmer, by design, can never be considered "precision". I own case trimmers by RCBS, Forester (essentially the same design as RCBS) and Wilson. By far, the Wilson is the most consistent and "settable" to an exact case length - head to neck. Casual reloaders may be happy with the Lee, but for precision ammo, the Wilson is tops - IMHO. -Ed
21 Dec 2017 @ 12:47 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Trouble shooting. Hi Mark, Marty was speaking of pressure applied to the caliper, not the trimmer. This is something new engineers have to get their heads around but also those learning to reload. The same applies to tool wobble as it relates to neck turning, not just case trimming. Marty was speaking of how we use hand tools, not which tool is better or worse. These are the fundamentals which must be addressed before the tool can be taken into consideration. A Wilson trimmer would be nice but is at this stage irrelevant. Andrew does not have the funds for this, he is working with the kit he has. Hopefully thats a better explanation.
21 Dec 2017 @ 01:01 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Trouble shooting. OK, to clarify more, Hamish is correct, the pin contacts the shell holder. It cannot produce change. All change is operator based. This particular Lee is set was given a final pin grind to lengh by Andrew to cut short for high volume work and additional safety. Again, be careful not to confuse learning issues with tool design issues. Heavy chamfering can also alter lengths if measuring after chamfering as opposed to trimming. But take note, a blunt cutter can also effect the OAL as it feels as though the gauge pin has bottomed out when in fact the tool is glazed. Andrew, this is quite common as a tool wears or if per chance the tool is not sharp to begin with.
21 Dec 2017 @ 01:13 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Trouble shooting. Thanks all, I have a few things to try here. My plan is get the best with what I have. Rule out myself as a variable then look at the tools. Much the same with shooting technique. Once I am confident in myself then I will look at changing out tools if required. Thanks heaps gents. Lots of information here.
21 Dec 2017 @ 01:23 pm (GMT)	Quote this Martin Taylor Re: Trouble shooting. Oh........ How about we try to offer constructive advice suited the the individuals circumstances. Anyway have a great x-mas all!
21 Dec 2017 @ 04:01 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Trouble shooting. Quick update. I did these by hand without the drill. Measurements are before, after trimming, then after the chamfer. You will notice that the cases grew after a chamfer, the last step. I can only imagine this is a thin wire that would be removed after a polish. I did not Polish the cases. I can see where the drill would be very handy for a polish but the results here are much more consistent compared to my previous run. Hopefully you can read my writing but we have an extreme spread of 0.03mm or 0.00118".
21 Dec 2017 @ 05:54 pm (GMT)	Quote this mark whiteley Re: Trouble shooting. ok then, to clarify more this is not operator error Nathan (respectfully) I am not confusing learning issues with tool design issues at all question, how can this tool, the lee case trimmer ever be accurate for trimming when cases are never made exactly the same? is close enough good enough? my evidence: this photo shows how different the thickness of the inside case head can be and how different the shape inside a case can be, although at an extreme you know this is true. so expecting to put a shaft into a case that relies on perfect seating flush to get the exact same length results every time is ludicrous don't you think? and in this picture you can obviously see the burrs left behind from having the primer flash hole punched as most case makers do when making the flash hole, when you have these burrs how are you expected to get a flush seating from the lee trimmer shaft? you can see in this picture how the lee case trimmer is supposed to fit flush this IMHO is the truth of it and there are better tools than the lee case trimmer for trimming cases consistently that should be promoted I understand that some people are very happy to be close enough with there measurements but Andrew didn't seem to be hence his question no need to carry on like a princess Marty that's good advice you gave and merry Christmas to you ;) regards Mark
21 Dec 2017 @ 07:42 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Trouble shooting. Hi Mark, The graphic does not properly reflect the size of the needle on the mandrel vs the flash hole. The needle on my depth mandrel is about 2/3 - 3/4 the size of the flash hole. Plenty of space for burrs or different sie flash holes but I imagine the width of the needle is specific. My mandrel is printed with 308. I would assume the needle is tailor for large rifle primer flash holes.
21 Dec 2017 @ 08:39 pm (GMT)	Quote this Mike Davis Re: Trouble shooting. again I will start by saying/apolagising that I dont do subtle.... the LEE cutter sets work and work well...the pin goes right through and hits the face of the case holder and stops it cutting any more....you CAN NOT cut it any shorter....you can get carried away with the deburring/champhering tool but you would have to be a right pillick to do it enough to make large difference. I use them in .270 .223 and 7.62x39mm and cause Im a cheap bugger the x39mm one does the .308 as well with old manual micrometre checking length as we go. the $99 cordless drill from Bunnings works fine and trigger pushed halfway in keeps it slow. dont over think it,if case a tad wobbly the case isnt hard into case holder,let her move a tad and it will work just fine it is after all centred by the plurry great steel rod down the guts of the case.... funny wee story...when I first got one (in .270) Im having a ball twirling the shavings off by hand but as I wasnt using a drill wasnt using the case holder so didnt have depth guage bit working and made one case with very short neck before mate pointed out the obvious....
21 Dec 2017 @ 08:45 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Trouble shooting. That is quite funny Mike.
22 Dec 2017 @ 01:01 am (GMT)	Quote this Hamish Gibbs Re: Trouble shooting. Hello Mark, I do try(but often fail) not to be judgemental on things I don't fully understand, please take a little time to read what has been said on how the lee trimmer trims to an oal on the length of the shaft/pin against the shellholder base, absolutely nothing to do with brass internal dimensions at least for length, I will repeat, You can not trim to shorter than the shaft length providing the case is snug against the shellholder base. As for flashole burrs possibly your argument has some merit, but only in context of concentricity if it causes your flash hole to be slighty off centre but remember this is minimised when divided by the length of the case(tried to think of the right equation for this but to late at night sorry). Nobody here is saying there are not better tools out there but I think Martin said this perfectly, offer constructive advice, some people don't have the means, others choose to prioritise there means differently. Andrew Ill admit some parts of these lee kits feel like something you won at a $2 coconut throw but have faith, take your time and get the feel by hand, enjoy the process, then have pride when your out there at the range doing well against guys with the big budget.