|
|
|
Discussion Forums
Forum Index
> Rifles general discussion
> NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???
NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???
@ 05:17 pm (GMT) |
IainFor a rifle with LR capability (500 to 700 yds) chambered in 7.08 or 308W, what do people think is a good scoped weight ? I am not an All Black, either in age or strength.I have spent time in the South both hunting and tramping - total maybe ten or eleven trips, mainly hunting. I have used both calibers mentioned in very accurate rifles that weighed under 6.5 lbs scoped. Pure joy to carry in steep country, but very demanding to shoot consistently well, particularly when ranges extend. I am thinking that my compromise point for those calibers may be somewhere between 7.5lbs scoped to no more than 8.5lbs, scoped. Interested in others experience and opinions. |
Replies
@ 07:13 am (GMT) |
Phil Van ZuylenRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Hi Iain sorry I can't really help I have never weighed any of my rifles but have a .308 how's in a Boyds stock (factory) that is light in the hand 20 in barrel good to about 250yrds with my low powered scope. For longer shots I have a .270wsm Weatherby vanguard again factory wooden stock bigger scope but not weighed. The Remington 700 tactical in .308 is often mentioned in this site with good results it is a heavy barreled 20 in job. |
@ 08:40 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Hi Iain, yes it can be said that the modern ultra lights are a joy to carry and to miss with.On the ultra lights, you'll find a larger 20 to 24 power optic helps to settle the rifle for long shots. It can make for quite a nice set up as I wrote about in the book series. |
@ 09:39 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Hey Ian. A group of us had a talk about this last year. See link to disscusion below. I guess that part of the hunting and shooting scene is being, keeping or getting fit enough to carry and shoot an accurate rifle. Just like a contract fencer has to carry his spade and post rammer up hills dig post holes, place and ram them tight. 10kg less body weight even 5kg lost makes a huge difference and is an investment in your own health and well being. Entirely up to you to choose. It's one of your available options and the rewards will pay way more dividends back for you than shaving metal and weight off your heavy piece of accurate artillery..........https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Discussion+Forums/x_forum/33/thread/13732.html#post_reply |
@ 09:57 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Ha ha, I've just finished bedding my new 308w all up but without ammo it weighs 12lb, with hand-loads developed for my other 308 it's shooting 1/3 MOA while sighting the scope in, I'm impressed. I'm 71yrs old, as long as I can keep a good grip on the rifle I won't get blown off the ridge. :) |
|
@ 10:36 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Sounds good Bob. Ive got a mate your age and he still drives a concrete truck and pushes wheelbarrows FULL of concrete for work. Uses a Still chainsaw and axe for firewood. Has a 30-06 Ackley improved Winchester Model 70 that he shoots very well. Hes fit and would laugh at 8.5lbs......His wet leather hobnail boots id weigh that much.http://www.sandipointe.com/im/boots/hobnail-boots-3.jpg |
|
@ 10:45 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Hi Warwick, It's the old saying "Use it or you'l lose it"I've been a builder all my life, managed to stay fit and keep pushing myself. I'm about to have a full knee replacement in November, that might slow me down for a while. All the best mate!!!! |
@ 11:51 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Next we'll be eating "light" mayonnaise and drinking "light" beer. |
|
@ 01:02 pm (GMT) |
IainRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Quote: Hi Iain, yes it can be said that the modern ultra lights are a joy to carry and to miss with.
On the ultra lights, you'll find a larger 20 to 24 power optic helps to settle the rifle for long shots. It can make for quite a nice set up as I wrote about in the book series. I recall reading that Nathan. Could have been subtitled "Ballasting the T3" perhaps ? |
|
@ 01:21 pm (GMT) |
IainRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Quote: Hey Ian. A group of us had a talk about this last year. See link to disscusion below. I guess that part of the hunting and shooting scene is being, keeping or getting fit enough to carry and shoot an accurate rifle. Just like a contract fencer has to carry his spade and post rammer up hills dig post holes, place and ram them tight. 10kg less body weight even 5kg lost makes a huge difference and is an investment in your own health and well being. Entirely up to you to choose. It's one of your available options and the rewards will pay way more dividends back for you than shaving metal and weight off your heavy piece of accurate artillery..........
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Discussion+Forums/x_forum/33/thread/13732.html#post_reply Thanks Warwick. That thread seems to have input from a lot of blokes who are carrying a tad excess. That is not me. If I lost 5kg, I would lose strength. If I lost 10 kg, I would die, if I didn't blow away first. I have always been regarded as a pretty fair climber and fitness and weight are as good as they can be for me. Making things a bit easier for our knees and lungs doesn't have to be an "either or" choice. We can have sensibly light gear and ALSO trim off excess body weight. WIN/WIN. There is also the consideration of physical size. In broad terms it seems that many posters weigh 80kgs or more, even when fit. I weigh 62. So if one gets into the numbers, a 10lb rifle for someone weighing 80kg size is a 7.75lb rifle for me. Or put another way a 10lb rifle for me is a 12.9 lb rifle for our 80 KG hunter. How many of you want to hunt thar with a 13lb rifle, no matter how nice it is to shoot ? Bob's idea of using the rifle as an anchor on windy ridges has some merit, particularly in Fjiordland, but 12lb ? No way. Even with a 30oz scope, I am unconvinced about the need for such weights to achieve excellent accuracy. I carried a very accurate Sako L61R 270 on my first thar hunting trip 45 years ago, and it weighed over 9.5lbs. I vowed never again. |
|
@ 02:30 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Iain. As I posted my commentI thunk that I may have put my boot in my mouth. I thought "scat"! What if he's built like a Mu Thai kick boxer? So I guess it is all about the rifle and teaching yourself a robust technique. Easier than avoiding Pavlova and cream, not eating the fat on a big steak. Abstaining from potatoes with butter,bread,rice,pasta and alcohol to loose extra weight. Maybe a hollow butt stock that you fill with hunting equipment? |
|
@ 02:37 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Hi LainI had a light custom built 308 for high country hikes, it recoiled like hell & killed me shooting prone, good for normal hunting but no good for long range, you would need to be very strong to control it. I'm 6' 85kg so yes it's easier for a bigger person to hump a heavy rifle. But If your going to shoot out long rifle weight is the answer. I have mates your weight that are very competitive long range shooters but they use heavy rifles, less body weight doesn't mean the rifle can be lighter. Normal hunting accuracy out say 300yds can be achieved with most light weight rifles. When we get out to 700yds it's totally different, you need that weight & stock design to counteract the recoil of a powerful rifle to get consistent pinpoint accuracy. My 45kg Daughter is shooting very well out to 600yds with my 9lb (total weight) 308, she would have no hope at 600yds with a light rifle. I built my new rifle 12lb total for long range work, my main cary around hunting rifle is the 9lb 308, it shoots very well. I'm 71 and still carry it all day in the hills. All the best with it mate. |
@ 07:06 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???I have a Howa heavy 24" barrel in 308 with a Hogue stock. It is bedded and stabilised with a sight on SIII 6-24x50 on top. Un loaded it is just shy of 5kg.Heavy for some but it is comfortable to carry and shoots well and truly sub MOA. It is not a burden, but I am 32 and relatively fit. 167cm and about 65kg. Not built but lower on the body fat than most. I have been caught short of breath on steep hills and have stopped for a pause. But I know what the rifle does, and what I can do. I think all the guys here are quite right. Get fitter generally, know what you want/need and work to it. |
|
@ 11:35 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Just to put things into perspective. We're talking mountain ranges big glacier carved steep sided granite rock Bohemia. Not a place for weak UnfitHunters Have a look... http://www.mountainman.co.nz/fiordland |
|
@ 11:54 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Look at the last photo on the second page for an idea of scale. |
|
@ 03:02 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Looks like the flatlands of B.C., everyday hunting terrain. Mind you at our ages Warwick, we may have to stop every once in a while, every 100yds or so, and take a nip and a nap. |
|
@ 08:21 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???One word.....Four syllables....... HELICOPTER One of my mates has a backpack Full of water bottles and twice a week does one of the loop tracks up and down Te mata peak to keep fit for hunting https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te_Mata_Peak |
@ 09:06 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???HI IainOne of the forum members Chris Murphy (murfs metalworx) built me a carbon fibre stock for my 308 norma mag, It replaced a boyd stock saving 400 grams but because it's designed right it's easier to shoot now think it's 10.5lbs with 6-24 sightRon a friend pointed out to me with the cost of going ultra light rifles it's better dollar for gram value looking at your other gear. Cooker, sleeping bag etc I'm experimenting with the new tikka bolt on forend to see if that helps tame my 270 a bit more if you want a light short action caliber tikka has some merit, but it's how we manage recoil of such a light rifle we need to consider |
@ 07:07 am (GMT) |
Daniel BourkeRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Hey guys,i know they are not very well liked on this site but a couple of my buddies and i have fitted muzzle brakes to our lightweight t3s in magnum power,they are built by Dean Maisey gunsmiths and have the ability for the brake function to be turned on or off with no change in poi,i carry mine around with the brake turned off until i find game abit further out then its brake on and earplugs in,not ideal for everyone but i find them really good and easier to carry a set of plugs than a really heavy rifle.They are called a Varimax QC. |
|
@ 08:54 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Good points Thomas.This is not such an easy subject because folk tend to confuse mass with weight. By adopting good stock mass, it is possible to find a good weight balance without having to go too heavy. This also helps us do away with the need for recoil taming devices which on a thin barreled rifle may (or will) lead to eventual muzzle swelling. In the book series I mentioned mating the Sendero style stock to light weight rifles to obtain such a balance. An equally confusing subject is that of aiming versus firing. Folk tend to confuse the two. A guy or gal can break on to a ridge top and after suddenly seeing game be forced into action rather quickly. If ones heart rate is high from climbing and the wind is buffeting, it can be hard to settle a light weight rifle and 'time the wobble', let alone shoot it. The issue of accuracy under recoil is secondary problem. Mass can help a great deal, weight also helps but there is a balance to be had between the two. Both weight and mass can be taken too far in any direction. A stock can be either too bulky or too lean, a rifle can be too light or too heavy for the task at hand. In my original answer, I gave a simple solution. If the rifle is light, a heavy optic can help balance the weight and help settle the rig for aiming. This does not solve mass issues (the modern rifle abominations) but it can give us a free lunch with regards to optics. We can use quite a luxurious zoom range without any noticeable gain in rifle weight. In the upcoming shooting vids, I will be shooting one of the T3 rifles from my first book (300 WSM left hand). We can use this rifle to push the extremes and highlight strengths and weaknesses of modern systems. This will be one of the keys to these tutorials, pushing the guns and myself to the extremes so that we can see what works and where things can go wrong - not some dick head shooting gongs at 1 mile after walking in a heavy barreled .308. I have put a lot more info into the book series. Not about to rehash everything here. |
@ 08:56 pm (GMT) |
Ben LawRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???looking forward to the next lot of video's! |
|
@ 10:35 pm (GMT) |
IainRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Thanks for the input folks.Bob I get that being scrawny doesn't enable me shoot accurately with less weight. The issue for little blokes is always carrying the load. Sort of like a big car versus a little car with a bootful of gear and large passengers. Interesting that your light 308was such a pig. Are you referring to high country Aus.or NZ ? There is a world of difference. Mine (6lbs scoped) is lively but certainly not vicious. I think it has something to do with stock design, and the material from which the stocks are made - definitely something not easy to measure happens with this stuff. I have also noticed that I haven't had a flood of responses from Kiwis saying that they hunt both sides of the southern Alps with 10 lb rifles, love them, and don't find them the least bit burdensome LOL. Andrew thank you. I have hunted with blokes of your proportions - a wee bit shorter than me, and a wee bit heavier. That combination cam make for very strong climbers and packers. I'll still wimp out on your 5kg rifle though. Warwick, I love helicopters, I too used to train by climbing hills with a pack with a few phone books in it. Alas, nowadays, I find I can get the same workout without a pack. Thomas - I agree broadly. I also agree with your comments on stocks, and one of the decisions that I have not yet made is whether o use a carbon stock, or the heavier fibreglass version of the same stock. All my other gear is as light as it can safely be, although a bit of a paradox is that over the last couple years, my cold tolerance seesm to have dropped, so I carry a warmer (heavier) sleeping bag and a little more clothing. Swings and roundabouts. Daniel I hate brakes, but agree that they are wonderful to use (for the shooter) A little bit of catch 22 with slim barrels is, as Nathan pointed out, there may not be sufficient wall thickness to cut a thread without the muzzle swelling. If the barrel is thick enough, it may also be heavy enough that brake may not be needed. Paul you are a qualified pot stirrer - flatlands ???? Nathan - interesting comments on the stock, and weirdly timely as stock material is my one outstanding decision. Graphite option or the 6 to 8 ounces heavier fibreglass - I'll probably end up tossing a coin on that one and regret the decision whichever way I go.LOL Where I am at with this is that I think I have been swayed to aim for the upper end of my comfort zone, or around 8.5lbs scoped. I can do this using a barrel approximating Remington magnum contour, but cut at 22/23" which will leave a muzzle of about .660. Rem 700BDL short, 28/30oz stock (if I use graphite), alloy mounts and 21/22oz scope. I think I would probably be good with a scoped weight of 9lbs, but 8.5 gives me room to move with a change to heavier mounts and heavier scope, should I choose; and still stay under 9lbs. If I wasn't so keen for this to be useful as a carry rifle and not something that is simply carried to a vantage point, I would happily go a little past 9lbs, but to do so would be rather restrictive for my use. |
|
@ 12:19 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???LainI'm in NSW range country, steep & highish but nothing like you blokes have. The 308 that kicked was an original Remington Mohawk, metal butt pad about 6 lb, accurate but I hated it. My 9lb 308 is a Sako L579 22" Madco barrel (I'll check the dia) McMillan stock, it has a NXS 3-15 scope, it's a pleasure to shoot, 3" three shot group at 500yds over my shooting sticks 168gn Z-max 2760fps is normal on a calm day, it's my favourite rifle. With a lighter scope it would be 8.5lb, the Nightforce on it is 2lb The 12lb 308 I've just built has a 25" heavy barrel, Remington model 7 in a laminated stock, Tract Toric 4-20x50 scope. It's my quod rifle, get up the top then shoot across valleys mainly culling pigs etc. It's very accurate. |
|
@ 02:36 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Iain, sorry, I couldn't resist giving Warwick a jibe. He is the master stirrer.Regarding your comment about fibreglas stocks, I had started another thread here somewhere about the B&C that a customer wanted to attach to his metal. It is solid fibreglass and appears to be well made. I was quite surprised though at how easy it was to flex it. Easy may not be the right term, but by simply twisting it in your hands, it did flex. Not a lot, but more than I would have figured to be possible. I understand that stocks aren't designed to withstand rotational torque, and that fibreglass isn't completely rigid, but still. This may be totally irrelevant to how they react in the real world, just something I noticed and may be worth considering. If I finish the job and get to shoot it before you decide, I'll let you know how it handles. |
|
@ 08:37 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???just a follow on from my reply previouslyso i managed to get to the range on friday. the bolt on tikka forend makes life a lot easier, i like it but do find tikka stock a little small elsewhere, this is my hack rifle as nathan calls it, it goes everywhere i never feel under or over gunned with it. ill have to reweigh it as i forget if 7.4 or 8.4lbs with 2-10 sightron on it. will bed it soon just need to brush up on few things will watch Nathan's video's before hand as i have been putting it off but it needs it. was playing with 225gr eld-m and adi2225 in my 308 norma mag, maxed it out at 2860fps which in a 10.5 rifle is rather lively but that stock makes it comfortable enough. next barrel will be profile thicker or stepped/taper one just to stiffen up the barrel a little this was built as my long range tops rifles/south island rifle but just haven't managed to get there yet look very closely at stock designs, use Nathan's book to understand what you need, seen to many stocks with skinny forends or to much drop at the heal. only you can make up your mind about what weight you can handle, you could build ultra light weight rifle but you obviously you know that it's not ideal when it actually comes to shooting it. i have often thought about doing a 308win on a tikka action with long mags and enough twist (factory is 1-11) to run 208 or 225gr but you would loose a lot of the close range shock. |
|
@ 10:02 am (GMT) |
Chris MurphyRe: NZ South Island Rifle Weight ???Right O you jokers ive been sitting back with my pop corn watching this thread and this whole light weight rifle thing pisses me off.Iain I am a south island hunter and most of my hunting is days away from vehicles. I am also not a great physical specimen, I'm 6 foot and 70 kg dripping wet. For a multi day hunt my pack weight is 18kg and I carry a 4.5kg (9.9lb) 7mm Practical No 4 contour barrel and S3 6-24x 50. This is very light for such a magnum and I have to keep my round count up to stay accurate. My wife often comes with me similar pack weight and carries a standard tikka 308 with 3-9x40 scope that I added 1lb of lead to the stock to make it shootable for her, she is 60kg. I set out making carbon fiber stocks just for myself as there was nothing on the market that fit my needs. Everything was stupidly light and thin or Tacti Cool. the reason I wanted to make a lighter weight stock (800ish grams) was so I could add a heavy weight barrel and big optics and maintain the same weight. Contrasting to me, I had a client come to me a couple of month ago thinking his scope was buggered as he was struggling to hit an A4 piece of paper at 100 yards. This guy is a similar height to me built like a brick shit house, plays rugby and spends a lot of time in the gym. So he brings in his rifle a fucken tikka super light with fluted barrel in 270win with a fucken bipod on the front. Before even touching the gun I said your scope is fine the rifle is stupid. So I took it to the range to check it and it was shooting .4". I moved the scope around, still shot fine (remembering I am averaging at least 100-150 rounds per month testing clients rifles and my own shooting). I asked the guy why he bought such a light rifle and it was because the fuck-wit in the shop told him he needed a light rifle. Because of this he lost out on 3 big trophy stags, missed and wasted shit loads of ammo trying to sight it in. So back to your question Iain. For those calibers 9- 9.5lb with a scope is a good weight for climbing up round the tops. |
Please wait
ABOUT USWe are a small, family run business, based out of Taranaki, New Zealand, who specialize in cartridge research and testing, and rifle accurizing.
|
KNOWLEDGEBASE |
KNOWLEDGEBASE |