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> Barnes TSX Failure
Barnes TSX Failure
@ 04:22 pm (GMT) |
Luke SchmidtNathan mentioned he'd been having trouble with Barnes copper bullets failing to expand. I had some lying around so I decided to see if I had a good lot by firing them into a peice of fire wood.I fired a 235 grain Barnes out of my 375 Ruger. Impact velocity was roughly 2700 fps. For comparison I also fired a handload in with a 270 Hornady round nosed SP. Impact for the Hornady was more like 23000 fps. The Barnes expanded slightly at the tip but not much. Only one petel is wider then the base if the bullet. The Hornady on the other hand mushroomed about halfway back. Now obviously a chunk of spruce is different from a living animal but I'm assuming if the Barnes bullet didn't open up in wood it probably would not open up well in a critter. I have mre Nosler Partitions in the mail, sticking with that for now. |
Replies
@ 07:32 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Barnes TSX FailureQuite correct Luke. I am glad that you followed through with the suggested test, even if the method was crude. This is a relatively new issue but is spread across the board. The demand for this type of bullet has put a strain on material supplies. The result - batches of non-expanding bullets. |
@ 12:43 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Barnes TSX FailureThat's horrible.Don't let your results get in the way of good marketing though. I'm sure the people who promote this stuff sleep soundly at night when they tell themselves good sales must mean their product is good. One of my favourites is shooting the jug of water inside the barrel and looking at the fragments of lead vs the solid copper projectile. I shot a rabbit (with a 22LR). Lost the whole front right leg to meat damage and bone/bullet fragments. Found some lead in the front left leg too, against the skin. The rabbit was dead though. The heart and lungs minced. Bullets kill by causing damage. Not by not causing damage. |
@ 01:15 pm (GMT) |
Raoul LefebvreRe: Barnes TSX FailureI've harvested black bear with the my 30-06, 358 Winchester and 35 Whelen, always very impressive results. The 30-06 was 180gr TSX, the 358 Winchester is their 200gr TTSX and the 35 Whelen was the 225gr TSX. The last bear harvested was with the Whelen, 235lb sow with 8 inches of fat on her. The shot was a quartering shot, 70yds, bullet entered center mass of the chest and exited just behind the shoulder. The bear dropped in its tracks, the lungs/heart were destroyed, the exit hole was larger than my fist. With the 30-06 180gr TSX, when the guide skinned the bear out, he told me that this is where the bullet entered, I told him that the hole was not the exit hole but the entry hole. He did not believe me until he found the exit hole on the opposite side of the bear; the hole was as big as a balled up fist. My experience has been that the Barnes bullet "do" expand and open up. I would not hunt bear with anything but the Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets. |
@ 03:10 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Barnes TSX FailureQuote: That's horrible.
Don't let your results get in the way of good marketing though. I'm sure the people who promote this stuff sleep soundly at night when they tell themselves good sales must mean their product is good. One of my favourites is shooting the jug of water inside the barrel and looking at the fragments of lead vs the solid copper projectile. I shot a rabbit (with a 22LR). Lost the whole front right leg to meat damage and bone/bullet fragments. Found some lead in the front left leg too, against the skin. The rabbit was dead though. The heart and lungs minced. Bullets kill by causing damage. Not by not causing damage. I take it you shot this bunny with a hollow point? Did you eat it? If so there in lies the rub for some. Lead fragments scattered thru-out. Most of us live in countries where you can eat lead tainted meat if you want - your choice, though the scavengers aren't generally aware of the danger - though I'm beginning to think some coyotes (always a step ahead of humans!) are. If Barnes put out a bad batch and this is proven to be because demand has led them to relax quality control and its their fault they should have their feet held to the fire. Period. Same with any other bullet/company regardless of composition (and lead bullets do fail - yes?). To damn the entire Barnes line of bullets (or all non-toxic bullets) in the face of so much success by so many is unfair. In any case the argument is a rabbit hole we've all been down. And its a choice for most of us and there are many angles to what keeps us up at night. I haven't shot a rabbit since I was pretty young, but I was always taught to use solids because we ate them - unless they were showing signs of aggression;<) They generally didn't take much killing. |
@ 08:57 am (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Barnes TSX Failureinteresting DISCUSSION.....we dont argue just discuss different points of view like gentlefolk...my personal experience with barnes bullets is 50 grn loads throught the .223 and a couple of 110grns through the mighty .270 win they work for me the .223 load is what she gets fed if something big gets sighted (the boar last week was exception to rule where I really pushed limits using a 50 grn ZMax down through kidney region)the barnes load wouldve been much better option for me,I shot similar sized boar at similar range a couple of months back and he didnt move with shot in behind elbow and across chest to break offside leg..... now question for you....why are you using a mono projectile in a big bore??? surely the top end cup n core offerings would be a better bet??? from ALL I have seen and read on these monos the key is velocity and more velocity is better than enough, a bit like drink driving.....the faster you go the bigger the mess.... there is a chap over on another forum who does a heap of testing in different media (pity that doesnt include the press) of all sorts of mono projectiles in the .277 calibre the results were VERY interesting with 2 loads being a stand out above all others...one was the 110grn tsx and the other I think was a 85grn?? designed for 6.8spc this fella now shooting hogs galore with the 6.8 to good effect...I believe secret to sucess is that he tried lots to find what works and what doesnt. I know figures on paper arent the whole story but when you crunch the numbers for the .270win the 110 grn load pushed out hot will BEAT a heavier load for energy right out to about the 400 yard mark because of the increased velocity you can push it with good loading.... light and fast beats heavy and slow with the monos...... they are opposite of cup in core in other ways too the .223 loads preform in similar way to a 130grn cup n core like a core loct but in reverse order....lots of damage on nearside shoulder and little on off side with small exit hole on red hind sized game..... MAYBE if you need to use monos you MIGHT be better served with the lightest weight for calibre offering you can find...... food for thought if nothing else. |
@ 08:31 pm (GMT) |
Anders ÖsterbergRe: Barnes TSX FailureI have shot over 20 Swedish Moose , and as many RoeDeers.. , a few FallowDers and a wildboar with different Barnes X bullets and they have peformed flawlessly , often instant kills .If I can deside I put the shots right over the leg and often take out aorta , there's a poun of meat that go to waste but the effekt when the bullet goes trough shoulderflesh is dramatic versus that it only goes through the ribs . I load in 308win and 150gr TTSX to about 875m/s Here is some sampels from recovered bullets, a few is shot in wet newspaper as testmedia . 
The bullet from my latest moose , a bull weighing 260kg gutted an skin off . 
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@ 10:30 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Barnes TSX FailureHey Mark,The ammo was actually solids. They are old though... old PMC target rounds. Perhaps the process of age annealed had caused them to break apart a bit more... not that this was the only one that had any fragments left in it though. But they were many. Full of fur and grass too... all the others were clean through, no fragments of bone or lead. |
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@ 10:34 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Barnes TSX FailureSorry that should read above that this was the only rabbit with lead and bone fragments... none of the others did.And yes, all 4 eaten. |
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@ 07:54 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Barnes TSX FailureSome of you may be missing the point here. I was talking about recent batch issues. Lately I have been seeing issues with bullets weighing less than 100 grains at impact velocities over 2900fps in flesh, recovered bullets showing zero expansion. I suggested folk keep an eye on (test) their current ammo just to be sure. This has nothing to do with game shot in the past and comments of this nature have no relevance to this discussion. |
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@ 08:29 am (GMT) |
Anders ÖsterbergRe: Barnes TSX FailureQuote: Some of you may be missing the point here. I was talking about recent batch issues. Lately I have been seeing issues with bullets weighing less than 100 grains at impact velocities over 2900fps in flesh, recovered bullets showing zero expansion. I suggested folk keep an eye on (test) their current ammo just to be sure. This has nothing to do with game shot in the past and comments of this nature have no relevance to this discussion.
When/where did you wrote that... not in this thread...? I can't arguing about bad lots of bullet ...I haven't heard of it.... Do you have some internet literature about it ? The monobullet hollowpoints like Barnes TTSX is relying on hydraulic expansion ... , so when shooting in solid dry materials like in wood they dont perform as they is designed . |
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@ 07:56 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Barnes TSX FailureAnders,It is mentioned in the second post of this thread. "...Relatively new issue..." Hence the comments about past results having no bearing on the current problems. Perhaps it was a simple QC error by Barnes, but if I had to guess I'd say they have dropped their standard to make/save money. Many companies do this. |
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@ 06:08 am (GMT) |
Anders ÖsterbergRe: Barnes TSX FailureOk...I wonder if I haven't taken my medecins... The above quote was to/from a guy named Greg , and now it's Nathan...? Anyhow... I haven't herd of those rumors about Barnes ... , my bullets hav performed flawlessly! I can think that's a velocityproblem... when shooting at longer ranges where the endspeed falls under 600m/s ... My longest shot with the TTSX is just under 200m... Sweden = timbercountry |
@ 05:51 pm (GMT) |
Charles MartinRe: Barnes TSX Failure“The monobullet hollowpoints like Barnes TTSX is relying on hydraulic expansion ... , so when shooting in solid dry materials like in wood they dont perform as they is designed .”Given my experiences this is the primary reason for TSX failures in heavy-for-caliber bullets or lighter loads. You have to drive monos fast or they just pencil through like a FMJBT. The most logical solution is to find a bullet weight for your caliber that strikes a balance between its ballistic coefficient and velocities at intended ranges to promote reliable expansion. There are alternative work-around. The hollow points of TSX’s are often very small. If you’re willing to invest the time and effort, you can drill out the hollow point to a slightly larger diameter. I recommend doing this on a lathe so the cavity is uniform. You must also be very careful not to use too large of a drill bit because TSX’s have four striations that promote uniform expansion into the four near-perfect petals. If you remove those striating you will get expansion, but at the cost of possible non-uniform expansion, such as is common with the Hornady GMX where it mushrooms into a circle with one or more tears/rips. They’re still effective, but they don’t give those characteristic Barnes petals. Also, the larger you make the hollow point, the bullets ballistic coefficient goes down. Another work-around is to drill out the hollow point as close to .175” as you can, but only by about 2mm (just enough to insert a common steel BB into the tip to create a round nose bullet. You want it .002” smaller so the BB has to be pressed in where simple friction holds it in place. It will actually improve the BC over simple drilling, but not by much. The BB serves as a hydraulic piston that gets driven down into the hollow point to rapidly initiate expansion. Included below is a link to a recovered Hornady 154 grain GMX shot out of a 7-08 at a very large wild boar. Just throwing some ideas around. https://imgur.com/gallery/ssIenMX |
@ 04:56 pm (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Barnes TSX FailureYou can try out Hammer Bullets, I dont know if they ship outside the US but you can check. You'll want a light for caliber bullet so you can push it faster, however these bullets are guaranteed to provide terminal peeformance down to 1,800 fps. Of course higher impact velocities are recommended, but they work great.Here is a link to some more info on them: https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/hammer-bullets.211476/ Best regards, Luis |
@ 05:56 pm (GMT) |
Calvin NickelRe: Barnes TSX FailureSome have mentioned concerns about lead in meat meant for eating, and being torn between that problem and the potential for slow killing with lead free bullets. I believe the best compromise would be with bonded bullets, definitely way less lead fragments, definitely far superior sounding at lower impact velocity. I especially am intrigued by the federal trophy bonded tips and the new edge tlr. Haven’t had a chance to play with them yet as they haven’t been available that long for handloading. I’m planning to load the 180 tbt in my 300 win. From all accounts they open up at just as slow impact velocity as cup and cores. The solid copper shank should especially minimize the lead contamination issue. |
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@ 07:19 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Barnes TSX FailureThere are a few videos Nathan did on DRT bullets as well as...https://youtu.be/Qvge3tA5bXo These guys have copper bullets but act more like the A-Max in terms of damage. I once shot an animal, the projectile clipped its rear leg before entering its rib cage. I only noticed on inspection of the carcass due to the small cut across its knee. There was however a fist sized entry wound and a soup of lungs and heart. Instant knock down. We must decide whether our quarry is worth a quick death and selecting bullets appropriately or whether we want to buy into some marketing. I hope you never have bullet failures or poor shot placement due to any number of errors that result in you tracking down a wounded animal but we can do many things before the trigger is pulled to reduce this likelihood. Bullet selection has to be up there. The other bullet I would use in place of the A-Max (30 cal 168gr in my case), is the Woodleigh Powerpoint 180gr (30 cal again). It also caused heavy damage, sending bone fragments as secondary missiles through the chest and exiting the animal through quite a large exit hole. Now admitedly, probably over-gunned for the animal but that is another choice we can make to ensure the fast death of our quarry. Bullets kill by causing damage, not by limiting it. If the design limits damage, well maybe it's not so great after all. If meat retrieval is priority number one I just want to encourage you to have a think about what it is that is you're doing. You can still take home plenty of meat and kill the animal quickly. |
@ 01:47 am (GMT) |
Shawn BevinsRe: Barnes TSX FailureThank you Adrew Murray. "Well Said!!".. |
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