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> Tumble on impact bullets?
Tumble on impact bullets?
@ 04:16 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifFort Scott Munitions markets a solid copper, non-expanding bullet, in numerous handgun and rifle calibers and weights, that purports to "tumble in impact." There's no recommended twist rates, so it doesn't appear to require in-flight yawing to accomplish the tumbling. There's nothing on their website to explain the physics of it. Seems like it would require some sort of eccentric weight distribution. What piqued my interest when I ran across it was Nathan's comments on 223 tumbling bullets in his Knowledgebase. |
Replies
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@ 10:24 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Tumble on impact bullets?I couldn't find their patent online, so I called them. They said the rifle rounds are boattail spitzers, with grooves on them like the TSX. No polymer tip or hollow point. Since the weight is in the rear, they tumble after penetrating a few inches. I asked, as an example, if the 58 grain 243 is designed for varmints. They said no, but they don't have any empirical data on that round on deer, just gel. They said one of them dropped a deer in its tracks last year with a 380ACP. "Out of a carbine?", I asked. "No, out of a semi-automatic pistol." |
@ 12:33 pm (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Hi Scott:A couple of questions? What is your intended purpose with these bullets? hunting or paper and steel? Just want to be sure. If hunting, what species are you going after and what is the cartridge you are using? Best regards, Luis |
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@ 04:14 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Thanks for you interest, Luis. Nathan talks about the devastating terminal effect of tumbling FMJ bullets in his knowledgebase article on the .223 Rem. I'm interested in using mono-metal bullets in .243 for deer. There's a wide selection of them available from the big players, but Nathan cautions in numerous articles that they tend to produce narrow wound channels. He recommends the weight-shedding, frangible, monometal rounds from DRT. Those haven't really caught on yet. Their loaded ammunition is prohibitably expensive. I just wondered if anyone in this group had heard of, or experimented with, this new offering of a "tumble on impact" bullet. |
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@ 07:01 am (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Tumble on impact bullets?I'm not a fan of monolithic bullets, they sometimes fail to expand and cause narrow wound channels and slow kills. I personally have not used them, however, I have seen the results of friends using them, some have been good and some have not. Now on tumbling bullets I have no experience at all.Whether you are using monolithics because required by law like in California or just trying to stay away from using lead I would only recommend Hammer Bullets, that's what I would used if I had to, however, I personally would still go with a cup and core bullet. The thing with lead free bullets is that they need to be pushed fast and used at limited ranges to ensure expansion. When the right cup and core bullet is used for the right game animal, close shots or long range aren't an issue, for what I hunt and where I hunt I need that flexibility, my shots at coues and mule deer can be 50m to 500m so better to be safe than sorry. Now the 243 is a great whitetail cartridge, my dad used it for years and years and if you are shooting whitetails at 200yds or less then maybe you'll be fine with the tumbling monolithics, but again no experience with them. I like to stick with hunting bullets that are more proven to work when of course are used correctly. I know, a bunch of words sorry, but hope they help. Best regards Luis |
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@ 10:48 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Yeah, thanks Luis. I'm leaving tomorrow for a blacktail hunt in western Oregon. I'm taking Accubonds. I like the idea of copper bullets, but I dont trust them. The forest is too dense to risk a slow kill. |
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@ 01:43 pm (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Same here, I like the idea of lead free meat but I want to give the animal a quick death and not risk a lost animal.I go for behind the shoulder shots with SST bullets and they usually drop a few yards from where they were hit. I love how the SST turns the lungs and heart to jello and everyone likes jello Lol. I hate blowing up both front shoulders cause that's half the meat on them and they don't have much on them already. The Accubonds are really good bullets, my buddy uses them on his 270 WSW and they do a great job on Deer and Javelina. Good luck on your blacktail hunt and happy hunting! Luis |
@ 02:35 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Tumble on impact bullets?If you want more meat. Get closer, aim smaller and neck or head shoot your food. |
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@ 03:15 am (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Quote: If you want more meat. Get closer, aim smaller and neck or head shoot your food.
Hi Warwick, that is always the plan, the closer the better and most of our shots are 300m or less, in some cases 50m, but sometimes the terrain and wind conditions don't help. We hunt public land and coues deer are very skirmish animals, so its not always easy to get close to them. We've taken a few deer with neck shots but from one side of a canyon to another with high winds which are more commom than not it can be tough. Now Javelinas have bad eyesight and hearing but good sense of smell, with them our shots are usually under 100m and always headshots, all we need to do is keep the wind in our faces and done. Also, most shots are off hand, can't lay in the ground with all the cactus, not fun. But yes Warwick, getting closer is better and more of a challenge as well Best regards Luis |
@ 03:27 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Tumble on impact bullets?But sometimes "close" can be unnerving, especially when you find out the animal isn't legal. |
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@ 05:51 am (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Tumble on impact bullets?With Coues and Mulies down here they don't get very big and anything with antlers regardless of size is legal. We like them to have the antlers at or exceeding the length from eay to ear, this makea the deer at least a 3 or 4 year old and a 6 point or bigger, we don't like to shot the babies. With Javelina we just pick the biggest one of the bunch.It is disappointing since sometimes you can't tell the size of the antlers on coues, the mature bucks like to hang around in the shaded side of the hills which are also the ones with ticker forest which hides them very well. So when you finally get closer you then realize you were looking a large doe or small buck, but thats part of the chase. Best regards Luis |
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@ 09:21 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Tumble on impact bullets?And independent review of the 6mm, 80 grain, "tumble upon impact" bullet, which has a bc of .54, showed that the tumbling is initiated when the nose bends at the ogive after impact. The test was in wet newspaper. How well that simulates animal soft tissue is anyone's guess. |
@ 10:53 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Hi Scott and others. I have avoided this thread and really should continue as such. Sometimes it is better to say nothing. But its been a while and I am sure many of you have been waiting to hear from me.OK, here we go. When the guy said that the .380 dropped the deer in its tracks, the best thing to do would have been to politely say thanks for your time, hang up the phone and put all of this out of your mind. In plain terms, bullets kill via blood loss (which takes time) or destruction of the CNS (which produces the instant 'stopped in its tracks' effect). The .380 is too slow to produce any form of spinal concussion (indirect strike to the CNS causing loss of consciousness). The .380 does not produce terribly fast bleeding. Death is generally at least 20 seconds from a chest shot but often over 30 seconds at 60 to 80kg body weights. If the deer fell over immediately, it was a CNS shot. The same result could have been achieved with any FMJ ammo - it has no bearing on bullet performance. Even the .44 magnum, after producing full destruction of the lungs can produce a dead run of about 30 yards or more. The .44 mag can be very good in that it can produce a drunken type reaction (at very close ranges / high velocity) but generally, there will be some form of dead run. That's just the beginning of this particular can of worms. All of us need to be aware of the bullshit within the eco-friendly industry. Much of this ammo is not in any way humane. Some companies put game animals first, some put profits first. You gotta get real about this, see things as they are, not how you want to see them. If the bullet has not yet been tested on game, then ask yourself why the hell is it up for sale as a game bullet - profit. I have placed more info on tumbling ammo in my next book (now finished), but this is a semi restricted item. Will release the book along with more details very soon. Edit / Additional: In order for a projectile to tumble, the weight has to be drastically reduced at the ogive. It takes quite a bit of effort (differing materials) to achieve this. The next problem is "when". It is extremely hard to design a projectile that will tumble consistently within the first inch of penetration so that the projectile is presented sideways as it strikes the vitals (as opposed to a gelatin test where the animal supposedly has a 4" thick hide). The issue of when is generally the biggest problem with such bullet designs. |
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@ 02:22 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Thanks, Nathan. I started this post as a matter curiosity, because of this quotation from your knowledgebase article on the 223 Remington:"The tumbling 55 grain bullet is truly violent and fast killing and is the most effective medium game hunting load for the .223....The one brand of 55 grain FMJ ammunition that does tumble is Norinco although the mechanism which initiates yaw on impact is difficult to ascertain." My interest in "tumble on impact" bullets is similar to my interest in monometal bullets in general, or black holes: I like physics, so I like to read about them, but I have no use for them. I don't hunt where lead-free bullets are required. I use Accubonds. The only bullet design that makes sense to me is the bonded bullet. The Partition, having been designed before chemical bonding was known, is an anachronism. The front half is designed to explode on impact, leaving the job of penetration to the shank behind the partition. The bonded bullet is designed to shed weight as it continues to penetrate. Obviously, the manufacturer has to decide on the tapering thickness of the jacket to control expansion, in light of the likely intended game. |
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@ 11:45 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Tumble on impact bullets?Unfortunately, one of the problems with the .223 tumbling load is that it requires a slow twist to prevent high stability. This can obviously have a detrimental effect on accuracy to one degree or another. Everything has to be just so for this to work. Those who have my Cartridges book 2 will have seen a slicker Hornady .223 bullet which I have been putting to use in recent years. |
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