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Ad nauseam question
@ 12:11 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifThere seem to be 2 camps, or schools of thought, about bullet design. One says you need an exit wound, and the other says you need energy dump with fragmentation and collateral damage. With their latest product offerings, Winchester, Hornady, and Berger seem to have hopped on the latter band wagon: Winchester with its Extreme Point, Hornady with its ELD-X, and Berger with it Hybrid hunter. Assuming the perfect broadside shot, I'm curious if there's a majority opinion. (While I understand the best-of-both-worlds solutions, such as Partition, that's not what I'm asking.) |
Replies
@ 01:32 pm (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Ad nauseam questionI'll take a shot at this one with reference to .308.The all round cartridge with accurate shot placement potential, provided by the marksman. Shooting ungulates, 200 to 600 yards, energy dump. Shooting ungulates, 0 to 200, any bullet will suffice. |
@ 02:11 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Ad nauseam questionThe difference between the two is that when pouring liquid out of a bottle with one hole vs one with two. With one hole the air has to get in, to let the liquid out. Where as, two holes lets air in blood out... And the bigger the hole the faster it pours thru.One hole wounds clot with blood. Two holes and the diaphragm stops working the lungs and death comes quicker.... only with correct shot placement! However! In the world of everything must be safe. One hole is preferred as no chance of bullet continuing on wards to harm other unseen items.... Cruel ? Longer dead runs? More lost animals. No liver, heart and Kidneys to eat! But Less legal strife for the ammo makers... |
@ 02:41 pm (GMT) |
Luis VazquezRe: Ad nauseam questionI prefer 2 holes with good damage to vitals. Bullet selection is key, not to soft and not to stout. |
@ 03:58 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Ad nauseam questionHi Scott.I've been using 168 A-max (Z-Max) in my 308 & 30-06 for years, my favourite projectile. I've shot 100's of Fallow, 10-12 Reds and a lot of pigs etc at 50- 500yds. I've only recovered one projectile from a Deer under the skin at 520yds. I've shot a fair few Fallow at around 500yds but all pass throughs. I'm now shooting a 6.5x47 Lapua with 143gn ELD X, same deal haven't recovered one projectile from more than 100 kills. I shot some pigs lastnight, one was a healthy 40-50kg Boar at about 20yds through both shoulders, the projectile still exited. Everyone tells me they're a fragile projectile but not in my experience. Cheers Bob |
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@ 04:56 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionMaybe the ELD-X is stouter than I thought. Isn't the A-MAX essentially an improved Partition? |
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@ 07:31 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: Ad nauseam questionHi Scott.No, the partition is a design of it's own, easier if you google it rather than I try to explain. It's a great projectile but expensive in Australia I believe the A-max was replaced by the similar but higher BC ELD-X https://www.hornady.com/support/faqs/since-eld-x-bullets-are-not-bonded,-will-the-jacket-and-core-separate https://www.nosler.com/partition-bullet |
@ 12:23 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Ad nauseam questionThe A-MAX line of bullets evolved into the ELD-M. Some calibres had slight changes in jacket thickness or shape, but essentially remained the same. |
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@ 12:56 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionI was thinking of the Swift A-Frame. Thanks for Hornady's terninal performance explanation. |
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@ 02:27 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionBerger's ads for the Hybrid Hunter come right out and say, "You don't want pass-through." Winchester seems to have taken the same approach without saying it. The Extreme Point is a wide-meplat, hollow point, cup and core bullet with a plastic tip. In the US they market it as the "Deer Season XP", elsewhere as the "Extreme Point." This has lead the US gun press to caution it only works on deer. Elsewhere, it apparently works on other game, as their ads targeting non-US customers sport galloping pigs. I mistakenly thought the ELD-X was a match bullet with a slightly thicker jacket. I see now Hornady is using its Interlock design, perhaps hedging their bet so as not to offend the pass-through crowd. |
@ 04:45 am (GMT) |
Fernando CundinRe: Ad nauseam questionBullet shape or form has an influence, or so it seems... Using the 170 grain FN Sierra in the 30-06 @ 2500 fps deals a hard blow to pigs with solid bodies that absorb hard energy. Though this bullet is prepped for the 30-30 and moderate velocities it does well on tough game at brush distances and snap shooting chances. I generally see two holes in cross body shots within 100 m.The bullet shape, specifically the flat nose meplat does seem to impart a hard hit with a solid "thwack" sound on pigs with under 100 yd. hits. I would like to learn more about bullet shape and game performance. Does the round nose bullet abet strong performance generally and still open two holes in game? |
@ 07:46 am (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Ad nauseam questionFor general hunting I prefer a bullet/ load that is atleast capable of reaching through vitals from quartering shots, preferable with an exit wound. Every now and then things go badly, and I like being able to place a killing shot through guts and all.For more dedicated long range loads, I use fully fired up bullets that dump energy/ shed weight, and often will not pass through at close range shots. But at longer range, these are usually also capable of deasent penetration/ quartering shots. So I will say I am an exit wound guy, all things considered. |
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@ 08:17 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionFernando's use of the FN in a 30-06 is innovative. Hornady's development history of the ELD-X is interesting. They make this wacky statement in it: "Current bonding methods don't allow the kind of accuracy needed for extended range shooting. Case in point, there's a reason you don't see bonded match bullets." They seem to be heading off criticism that they're selling a cup and core bullet at a premium price. Also interesting that the "heat shield tip" only affects bullets with .550 BC or better. Berger's statement that you don't want pass-through makes some sense. On the other hand, it could just be a way for them to market their existing match bullet technology to hunters. They claim their Hybrd Hunter magically grenades after 5 inches of penetration, without elaborating any different behavior depending on whether soft tissue or bone is encountered. |
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@ 08:58 am (GMT) |
Fernando CundinRe: Ad nauseam questionI would like to explain a little further...The flexible 30-06 is well able to take advantage of some interesting reloading recipes, and I was interested in the 170 Sierra FN for the actual lack of sectional bullet density for an initial hard impact. Through testing and field experience the Sierra will also penetrate well enough for a good terminal result, so it works good for stalking swamp pigs. Tail on shots are not ideal, but the shock at under 100 meters allows for a near stop on pigs so that a second anchor can be made with assurance. Some rear quartering shots no not always put the animal down, pigs can soak up a big dose of 30-06 and remain mobile. When hunting the swamps and brush and a good stalk is made up to within 100 meters (50 and less is ideal) the Sierra is a good choice. One shot stops are very reliable on relaxed and preferably broadside pigs. I aim for the foreleg about the middle of the torso when they are moving, they are always moving. And I will also aim for the neck when there is a confident aimed shot available. The Nosler 170 grain RN PT is also very good. This is a more expensive reloading component. It feeds well from a magazine and smoother than the more blunt nose Sierra 170 FN. I do not think there is much performance differences between the Sierra 170 and the Nosler 170, at least on pigs. In shooting wet paper testing media the Nosler will penetrate deeper than the Sierra. I think that this is to be expected. The Sierra 180 gr RN looks like it should also be a good performer in pigs, but I expect that it would do better on larger more robust animals with live weights greater than the average 60-80 lbs. large swamp pig. I do have these bullets but have not yet tried them on pigs. I would be interested more if I could reliably punch through the whole pig and still deliver impact with a heavy dose of shock. |
@ 09:05 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Ad nauseam questionJust posting to provide some clarity.The A-MAX is the ELD-M. The ELD-X is an SST with an enhanced form (BC) and without a cannelure. The two projectiles are otherwise much the same (killing performance). Both have a thicker jacket than the A-MAX/ELD-M. The Nosler Partition is a two part (partition) bullet design based on the now very old RWS H-Mantel. The Front section of the Nosler is very soft and tends to fully shed its front core, greatly aiding wounding. The rear is core is hidden behind a copper partition and is designed to stay put. However on heavy bone, if the rear section bulges under resistance, it may on occasion shed the rear core. The Swift A-Frame is a further step up from the Partition, featuring bonding to prevent rear core separation. After striking very heavy bone at high speeds, the A-Frame will ball up like a musket ball but not shed its rear core. The A-Frame could in my opinion (or is that experience - its all subjective) be made slightly more versatile with the omission of bonding in the front partition. By weakening the front section slightly, performance would be enhanced on lean game and or at low velocities while the rear bonded core would ensure reliable performance on heavy animals. Regarding recent designs such as the Winchester load; there is more to this than most folk realize. Many factory rifles are not as accurate as folk would like to think, nor are the people using them. But when things go wrong in the field, it is often the bullet maker that gets the blame. The vastly increased wounding effect of a fully frangible bullet like the Extreme-point can help overcome this shot placement error. A hunter may state that he wants X performance, but the bullet maker is generally forced to make a bullet that the hunter needs as opposed to what he wants. A fast killing bullet gives the ammo maker a good rep, leading to further sales. Still, some folk will complain. The techs at Sierra for example, have to put up with a lot of negative emails to the tune of "your Gameking bullet blew up". The customer believes that he alone has discovered a major flaw in their several decades of bullet making and is sure that he heard an angelic choir as he hit the send button. The techs in turn hit the delete button. They know how their bullets work, they understand fragmentation. It is equally important to understand that some cartridges simply do not have the energy potential to render large wounds via hydraulic force alone. The .22 centerfires are a good example of this - fast at the muzzle but lacking energy down range. The 6mm;s share similar problems. The majority of hunters tend to think that because these cartridges are light, a tough bullet will help increase performance. This concept can work OK at closer ranges but at moderate distances, in the absence of both hydraulic and mechanical forces, wounding potential may be limited. "But if I use a fragmentary bullet, won't that limit penetration" Yes it will. So either the cartridge and bullet are well matched to the game you are hunting or they are not. Don't try to make a cartridge into something it isn't. In my experience, if you use enough gun you can have the best of both worlds. |
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@ 10:06 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionSales drives any industry, and manufacturers frequently steer customer demand. Look at Musk's goofy pickup truck - a lot more appealing with the built-in ramp for the electric 4-wheeler. But back to bullets. My original post was qualified with, "Assuming the perfect broadside shot . . . ." It was a loaded question that elicited a weath of vital responses. Thanks. |
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@ 10:37 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionSierra seems to have capitalized on the concept of making a good thing better. Their Gamechanger, a tipped Gameking, significantly improved the BC of an existing design, like Hornady's ELD-X. Recent latest-and-greatest product trends seem to favor improving on the good ol' cup and core. Plus, Sierra still makes bullets suitable for Fernando's swamp-pig-hammer rounds. |
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@ 09:38 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionBased on the excellent advice I got here, I've come to the conclusion I need to quit trying to find the one perfect bullet, and instead concentrate on the two perfect bullets. My deer hunting consists of still hunting logging roads for a mile or so, sitting a couple clearings, then walking back out. Walking in and out, I never know what shot might present itself, so I need something capable of penetrating to vitals from any angle, including tail-on. Once I'm stationary, I won't be taking tail-on shots, and I don't want to have to drive the bullet through the shoulder bone to get it to upset/expand. Distance could be 50 - 450, so a high BC frangible bullet like the Sierra Gamechanger, Hornady ELD-X, Berger Hybrid Hunter or VLD would be the ticket. The follow-up round in the magazine will be the walking-around round. |
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@ 10:18 am (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Ad nauseam questionYes, good plan. I've also landed on duel loading for most my rifles the last 10 years or so. But I walk with the rifle loaded up with short range/ meat loads, and long range loads in a spare mag or on the stock (with non-detachable mag rifles), as I usually have much more time for those shots. No problem to un-load and re-load for a 3-500 meter shot, but the typical 30-100 meter woods shots must more often than not be taken within a few seconds. |
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@ 11:47 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionThanks, Magnus. I'm thinking Scirroco or Accubond for walking around. Needs to be stout and shoot to same point of aim, more or less, as the "stand" round. While I like the idea of the shoulder shot for incapacitation, it's a low percentage shot. The ribs present a pretty big target for broadside or quartering away shots, and the chest for head-on or quartering-to shots. That's why I think the frangibles are the way to go. |
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@ 07:32 pm (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Ad nauseam questionNot a very bad idea. I've used the AB a lot in 6,5x55/140 - 270/140 - 3006/180 - 300wm/180, all full power loads, and they've worked well from zero to about 400 meters (600 for the 28" 300wm). But I find them too destructive at colse range in the shoulder. If you generally shoot behind the shoulder, I think the bullet might suit your needs quite well. Generally easy to find accuracy in most rifles I've tried, and easy to get simililar poi to the ELD-X/ M of similar weight and velocity, if you find them too stout for the longer shots.I have a similar impression of Sciroccon180/ 3006, but only from a handfull of animals. What cartridge are you using? |
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@ 11:07 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionI have 30-06 and 243. A large blacktail deer here is 150 lbs. The terrain is rugged, the weather frequently rainy. The 243 rifle is shorter, lighter, and cerakoted. That's my preference for hiking around with. I have misgivings about the caliber past 200 yards, which is why I'm so interested in bullet selection |
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@ 12:05 am (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Ad nauseam questionI see. For the 30-06 I believe a 165 grain Accubond will cover all your needs. I haven't tested this weight myself, but I believe I remember to have read in Nathans article about the 30-06, that the 165 performed well on game in such size.I have shot quite a bit of blesbuck, impala, warthogs and other plainsgame in the same size as your deer with a 243, shooting 70-75 grain GS Customs at 3300 fps or there about. Works very well at normal ranges, out to 250 or so. They are very similar to a Barnes TSX, but shed petals more easily. Very reliable, and produces good wounds at that MV. But if you're only using the 243 out to 200 yards anyway, and don't need insane BC, a Partition seems like an obvious choice if you are sceptical towards the monos. You mentioned that one yourself further up, so I guess you've contemplated it. |
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@ 01:09 am (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Ad nauseam questionA little correction - I just checked the 30-06 article, and it looks like the 150 grain AB is probably better than the 165 for your size animals. Or whatever shoots best, of course. |
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@ 06:39 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Ad nauseam questionI feel privileged that I can get on this site and obtain all this great information based on field experience from around the world. Now that I understand BC and terminal ballistics, mostly from this site, I can make informed choices. Yes, the partition, .365 bc, would be an excellent choice for <200 yds., maybe even for a tail-on shot. I already know the Accubond, 376 bc, shoots fine in my gun, but I don't trust it beyond 200. Sierra's new Gamechanger, .490 bc, would retain sufficient velocity past 200. My concern, when I started this post, was what people thought of the wisdom of, what seemed to me, the manufacturers' trend of enhancing their frangible bullet lines. |
@ 07:07 am (GMT) |
Michael SeagerRe: Ad nauseam questionI'm in the 2 holes is better than 1 camp. Ideally with bone broken as well as breathing and circulation disrupted |
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