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> Groups or Bullseyes ?
Groups or Bullseyes ?
@ 10:47 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittIs it just me or has it changed?It used to be that you went to the back paddock paced out some yards sat down your box, lid, can whatever improvised target you could find with a few round dots (Bullseyes) on it. You then proceeded to shoot and adjust sights/scope until you where bang on the Bull. Gun sorted off to the hills to fill the freezer...... Now correct me if I'm old, outdated and modernly wrong??? BUTT It seams to me that now we go to the Range. Fill out legality forms, have gun inspected, set up target...... wait for orders to fire, and commence to shoot a group! Now It appears that said group can be several MOA's distance away from the Bullseye :0 and yet they'll puff out your chests,,, Wow boy's look out its MOA man here. But you missed the bullseye! Ya didn't hit the middle of the target... YA MISSED? Well F.M.W.A.B.S.................. Remember shooting Mums pegs off the clothesline with the pellet gun and then Mum shooting a group a bruises with the strap around your arse!!! Ah... A taste of Motherly administered Corporal replenishment A bit like common cents eh???? So what's your flavor Gents and Ladies? Groups or Bullseyes??? |
Replies
@ 12:04 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?The formality of Life. Just a pun as much as your BUTT! Haha.Then there are the MOA men that appear at the range. Strap their rifle onto a shooting platform/sled etc. adjust their scope and say its good enough YET never shoulder the weapon and test their metal. Yeah Eh! I'm done with the range, rules, regs. The opportunity is available for a short drive, 78 KM, to an abandoned oil lease road. Dial in the scope, prone, or self. Whatever requires adjustment that day and then shoot 8 inch yard ornaments, Those metal roosters-chickens-gnomes that have two wire legs, from a geneflection position(the RC in me that surfaces occasionally) using the sling. No short answer here eh. I shoot for groups within the 8 inch circle of life/death(The Bullseye) |
@ 05:33 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?For most of my life I had the free Olin-Winchester range in East Alton, Illinois at my disposal. The only distance for center fire rifles is 100 yards, and you have to shoot from a bench. I rarely availed myself of it, preferring to pace off 200 yards in a farm pasture, draw a 1” circle with a felt-tipped pen on a cardboard box, and zero on it. Now I pay for a range in Oregon with 100 and 200 yard target backings. The range rules prohibit shooting other than off the bench, unless you’ve got the place to yourself, which is a rarity due to the AR crowd. While there’s a strong argument for being able to achieve MOA or better off a bench if you want to shoot past 300 at an animal, bench practice is the worst practice for hunting. |
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@ 10:38 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?THE BENCH. Is for sighting a new rifle, Load development, Trigger pull setting, Training new hunters, Pre purchase testing a used firearm, Drop charts if range goes out far enough, Punching holes in paper, Talking with your mates, Introducing your children/Partner to safe firearms handling...... |
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@ 12:19 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?It is also a tool to aid and help improve skill and confidence in becoming familiar and skilled with your Food gathering tool. Such an Implement requires skill thought and understanding. When we don't set benchmarks or have required skills and standards (Bullseyes to aim for). We become vulnerable and open ourselves to ridicule and suspicion from ill informed, uninterested or groups with opposing values and ideals? We become no more that an unfit skill lacking athlete? Who dreams great things whilst in truth becoming a danger to themselves and anything unlucky enough to be in range of their wanting skill set!We must remember, that self discipline is also a skill that needs to be shared and learned, In some instances it must be taught. If not the results will be more accidents, more rules, more restrictions and more reasons for firearm ownership to be removed and denied!!! It's up to us, to up skill and educate ourselves, hold others too account when unsafe Ninglephut https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Discussion+Forums/x_forum/33/thread/19550.html are observed.. Remember that "You don't have to be sick, Too get better"...... An accurately sighted in Firearm is just that, "Accurate". It shoots into a predictable and known point. If you don't learn what that point is then you need more time behind the butt honing your skills....... Get at it Gents.... |
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@ 05:35 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Another good reason to practice in the field. Twice I’ve been at ranges when some knucklehead with a jammed semi-auto had the buttstock rammed into his gut, crouching over the gun, yanking on the bolt, waving the fucking thing indiscriminately, including in my direction. My current range has no one “on-duty.” The property is owned by a conservation group, to which you have to pay dues, in addition to a range fee. The only requirement for membership is you have to attend an indoctrination meeting where they go over the rules. At the meeting, they brag about their safety record. Their only “incident” was the case of an off-duty policeman who killed himself while removing his 300 WinMag from his vehicle. The parking area is directly behind the benches. |
@ 02:31 am (GMT) |
Mike RRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?It’s quite interesting I’ve migrated back to shooting bullseyes, having the shots 1 or 2 inches above target at 100yds is fine for load development no doubt. But when I’ve finished load development or sighting in now I pick my range I want it to zero an hit as many bullseyes till I’m happy. I believe I’m having more success head shooting at longer ranges. Sort of like training your brain to hit the spot.But then again most of my shots are between 100-200 meters at night out of a vehicle |
@ 10:30 am (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Awhile back a good mate printed me off some targets....usual bullseye rings type thing BUT has 1" square 3" above bull....I used it upside down and found deviding square with XHairs worked well....then got him to print me off others with smaller dots at 2 and 3" below bull dot being 1/2" /cm ish in sizeyip they were just about perfect you are shooting group you are shooting bull BUT you are aiming for smaller bull down lower to allow for elevation to be permanently set on scope....for us old farts who dont rangefind, twiddle n fiddle. if Im in hurry....usual target is a X on cardboard box....I find the X much easier than a cross as can centre scope better.... low power scopes have some disadvantages...not many but some. |
@ 12:19 pm (GMT) |
David LenziRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Why not both?It's been a heck of a last few weeks. I shot my first F-class 1000 yd competition, I shot a bunch of days with my Dad and Son, and the last two weeks or so have been training folks to shoot, first rifle and then pistol. Precision/groups mattered an awful lot in every one of those endeavors...as did hitting the dang target. Now, there are exceptions of course (smoking tin cans, bouncy targets, that sort of thing), but as a rule I am shooting for groups any time I'm putting holes in paper. I'm also shooting to hit to a desired POI (not always POA, might be an offset). If I'm missing my POI, I'm doing something wrong. If I'm throwing shots, I'm doing something wrong. It's not a one or the other thing. |
@ 03:25 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?David makes sense. I have never shot in competition and while I don't rule it out, my shooting is for the primary purpose of hunting and hunt readiness. So to me the small groups are not the end goal, but a means to an end. They are a significant step on the path to the ultimate goal of consistently hitting the target on the first attempt. |
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@ 10:21 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Well I've loaded up some Hornady 95gn V -Max bullets for my 6.5x55 Swede. With 47g of ADI2209 seated and crimped. Will zero at 200yrd and then see what kinda bull eye get? I need a puke and rabbit vaporizing load... they're getting out of control.... have any kiwi readers got their pest control license and an AR15. Maybe one of our police officers wants some practice with Just Cinders BUSHMASTER that's in the boot of his patrol car???? Happy to organize an arrest the pest shoot.....in the Bay of plenty regon.... lets bust some feathers and fluff some fur.. |
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@ 08:22 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?So I went up the hill, scratched a bulls eye om some painted Core flute and let rip some reloads 4 to see how accurate and then two more after coming down 15 1/4 moa clicks from 140gn A-max/Partition zero to get 95gn V-Max in the eye...... Look out Rabbits and other vermin........... The Swedish Knights Mare is on the prowl......https://i.imgur.com/7JaifM1.jpeg |
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@ 08:30 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Range was 120yards then smoked a 8 inch gong twice @ 300 yards. job done... Hi ho Hi ho and off ta hunt I go...... The Sako 75SS in 6.5 x 55 has been a great shooter from day one I was lucky to get a good one second hand. |
@ 06:14 pm (GMT) |
Hamish RoundhillRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Its simple the answear is both shoot a tight Group on the Bullseye. A tight group is whatever the shooter feels is acceptable for their type of use. |
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@ 07:44 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?What’s “ethical” is a personal, moral choice. But no amount of science/physics theory can substitute for empirical proof. Say you can repeatedly shoot 1 MOA groups at 100 yards. Whether they’re on the bullseye or 3” high, you’ll need to extrapolate for longer shots. Rounding 1 MOA to 1”, the extrapolated groups are 2” at 200, 3” at 300, etc. Ignoring wind, a ballistics program will tell you the POI at any distance you input, assuming you have accurately measured the distance between the line-of-bore from the line-of-sight, you have mapping software that tells you your altitude, and a thermometer handy. You also need to input the bullet’s BC. Assuming the manufacturer’s published BC is honest, it was probably calculated on the bullet’s shape before it was deformed by rifling. So right there you’ve got a variable whose value can only be determined by shooting the bullet in your gun. But let’s assume the BC difference between a pristine bullet and the one fired out of your gun is negligible. Also assume you have accurately calculated any tracking error in your scope, and produced a drop-chart that takes account of it. That’s all well and good, but have you taken account of the sight-picture your scope’s reticle presents at, say 500 yards? Assuming you’ve done all your testing from a bench, what error-factor should you add an if you’re using a tree as a rest? Does it matter to you if your quarry is a pest animal, feral, or a majestic, indigenous creature? Either way, I would argue there’s no substitute for empirical proof . . . The “smoking gong,” so to speak. |
@ 01:24 pm (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Warwick, I like to shoot. So I really like to go out on my own so I can just have at it. Yes that instinctive shooting is how we did it too. Cacti were a favorite target as well as cans. Yes, the backside got some wrath the time the chicken coop was ventilated with a 12 gauge.We hunted with BB guns and 22's a lot so there was a lot of just fun practice at cans, etc. When deer season came we would sight in, mindful not to waste ammo and dad would load up for hunting. I think some of it is we have more resources now so we an afford to shoot high powered rifles more at the range. Still, something to be said for smashing a hundred prickly pear with a 22. It may also have to do with long range. Nobody shot long range here, ever. There just isn't an ethical way to do it without practice, load development, charts, bullet research, and more practice. So now if guys even want to try it they have to shoot a lot. |
@ 12:05 am (GMT) |
william badgleyRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?Its been fun reading all of these. Not sure anyone is wrong, but I'll give you my take. "IT DEPENDS" My .22 is sighted to hit 1/4" high at 50 yards. It is 3/4" high between 35 and 40 yards. Doesn't sound like much but when shooting at really small things you better know when the target is 35 to 40 yards or you will miss. My .338 Win Mag. is sighted to hit 2.5" high at 100 yards, knowing full well that it will be 3" high at 150 yards and 3.5" low at 300 yards. In both cases it is the intent of the gun that determines the way it is sighted. Squirrels for .22 but never more than 60 yards. And elk for the .338 set for pretty much brainless( PBR ) out to 300 yards. And I know to dial up 4 minutes if said elk is 400 yards. I also understand my limits and will not to shoot further because I'm not ready or good enough yet. My .44 Mag rifle is running out of steam at 150 yards and where it is used rarely can a deer be seen that far, so it is set up for deer accordingly. I could go on and on for ever gun I own. They are set up according for intent while understanding the limits of the caliber. |
@ 08:23 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Groups or Bullseyes ?You should be shooting both!When training people, doing load development or checking a rifle combo l always use Nathans 3" high method @100. Why? If you have an unaltered aim point and focus on it (cross, circle, whatever works), this helps stop the "wow look at that group, if l just squeeze one in the middle of those 2-3 it will be my best" ..... fudge factor. It is often done subconsciously. If your shooting @ 100 and smack 5 onto you aim point you shouldn't have an aim point left. Just aim for the middle..... Do your development (load or self) then adjust zero to desired point of impact and move on. Now we move to field or range shooting and yes bullseyes are now your goal. Hold over/off, adjust or dial up point of impact as now this is all that matters. Insert Ethics rant here. So l wouldn't be so quick to knock these MOA shooters as its be termed, we all shoot groups!! |
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