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> Recoil fad
Recoil fad
@ 06:10 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifI bought my first high-power rifle in 1981, a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06. It had no recoil pad, just a thin plastic butt-plate. A year later, I bought a Remington in 6mm Rem - again, just a plastic butt-plate. I grew up shooting 12 gauge shotguns with no recoil pads. Nowadays, most 223s come with a recoil pad; some are even threaded for a muzzle break. I wonder, was there some scientific study done to confirm that pads, such as the PACHMAYR, really made people shoot better? And muzzle brakes? Is there any empirical evidence they help? |
Replies
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@ 06:13 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Recoil fadIf either device aides accuracy, wouldn’t the military adopt them? |
@ 07:31 pm (GMT) |
VinceRe: Recoil fadHi Scott,Interesting question, I was reading something the other day about curved gun stock butts in the early american days to aid shooting from horseback. I find rubber recoil pads useful, largely becasue they don't slide around. I guess the compression must help in at least a minor way to reduce recoil but from what I understand stock design and shape is far more important. A mate of mine has a 7mm Rem Mag in a Tikka Hunter Wood and Stainless model, theoretically along with the 30.06 on the borderline of recoil an average person can take without flinching. My experience is that it is a very uncomfortable rifle to shoot on the range (no issues with 1 shot in the field). I have shot other 7rm's that are far more pleasant with the same loads. In terms of muzzle breaks and I guess silencers fit into this category too, I have both and use one. My 7mm08 has a silencer which does reduce recoil, no idea by how much though. This is my main deer rifle, largely used for bush stalking and the silencer is there not for reduced rifle length, weight or recoil reduction but simply to protect my ears. As Nathan says don't just screw them on and go, treat them as a potential hazard and act accordingly. My longer range rifle is a Kimber Montana in 280 AI and comes factory threaded for a muzzle break which you can buy at the same time from Kimber. I chose to get it, not because the rifle has an unpleasent recoil (it's pretty tame considering the weight) but because during load development I was firing up to 33 shots in a session and wanted to ensure I wasn't causing any errors. The break definitely significantly reduces recoil but you need good hearing protection because wow it makes a noise. Once load development was completed, I sighted in and subsequently hunt without the break, it's just not necessary for field use, and in the kimbers case, I am worried the barrel is just to thin to put a silencer on for noise reduction. That is my 2 cents anyway Cheers Vince |
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@ 08:03 pm (GMT) |
VinceRe: Recoil fadIn terms of muzzle break effects this link might helphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsOQWA3-NLY&ab_channel=DeanMaisey Cheers Vince |
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@ 04:58 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Recoil fadThanks Vince. Your observations and the video were most informative. My curiosity about recoil pads was piqued recently looking at photos of the current offerings from Ruger. Their high-end Hawkeye wood-stocked models have a thin rubber butt plate, whereas all their synthetic-stocked models feature a thick recoil pad with the appearance of “venting” reminiscent of the Pachmayr pads of yore. My guess is it’s all driven by cosmetics. Even if they had evidence the thick recoil pads helped reduce recoil, were they to stick one on a walnut stock, someone in marketing would say, “Looks like shit,” and that would be the end of it. As to muzzle brakes, I was amazed at the results. 75% recoil reduction is impressive. A 300WM is tamed to 243 levels. A 308-based cartridge would presumably fall somewhere between a 22 rimfire and a 223. As you said, recoil really makes no difference in the field . . . just at the bench. Another interesting point from the video was the brake designed to inhibit “muzzle enlargement.” Most guns now come “threaded.” Makes you wonder if the supplied thread protectors are designed to protect against the possibly dire consequence of weakening the muzzle by cutting threads in it. |
@ 12:43 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Recoil fadCome on Scott! The Thread protectors there to protect the thread. Your shoe laces are there to stop ya boots falling off . A Muzzle break should have strings not threads....... To Hook behind the ears and muffle the low Caliber turds......It's a broke conspiracy that a .22LR needs a break or a brake ..... Tanks and Artillery need em four shore.....A 223, 7.5x55, 44-40wcf Nah!!! Silencers yes a valuable tool and asset......... Then again? Remember "NEVER ARGUE WITH A FOOL, THEY'LL DRAG YOU DOWN INTO THEIR INTELLECTUAL BASEMENT, AND THEN PROCEED TO BEAT YOU WITH INCOMPREHENSIBLE EXPERIENCE.......But some would say that....... Arguing with an engineer, is a lot like wrestling the mud with a pig. - After a couple of hours, you realize the pigs better and the mud really likes it. So me thinks Ive reached a point in time, to take what I know works. Pack it in a dry bag, shoulder the load, turn away and leave..........? |
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@ 02:28 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Recoil fadIt seems like a threaded muzzle would be a special-order item that you’d pay extra for. But many production rifles from the cheapest (TC Compass), to higher-end (Sako 85) come threaded, no matter what the caliber. I can see Vince’s point of using a silencer on a brush gun. You need to be able to hear game, and may not have time to deploy hearing protection. But why thread any gun with less recoil than a 300WM? |
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@ 05:53 pm (GMT) |
VinceRe: Recoil fadHi Scott,With the recoil pads, as you say it's probably down to aesthetics, no-one wants to pay for a high grade walnut stock then shorten it to add an ugly pad. With the cheaper rifles which probably make up the bulk of sales and profits, why not put them on. Whether they work with felt recoil reduction, or customers simply think they do either way it's a win for the seller. Same thing with the threaded muzzles on 223's etc, if your customers think they need it then make it a selling point and charge accordingly. As an aside the muzzle brake (learnt how to spell it now!) video link I forwarded you is from a well known North Island gunsmith. I know a couple of people who have had rifles built by him and seen a few reviews on line, from all accounts he is pretty well regarded. Almost all of his work is now with silencers and brakes, despite him being able to build custom rifles, bespoke walnut stocks etc, it's where the market is at, necessary or not. As depressing as this is, I can't blame him for going where the business is. I still have my first deer rifle from 1991, a Mauser in .275 Rigby with a thin rubber butt pad, a nice straight grained walnut stock and a 24 inch blued barrel. It isn't threaded..... and it never will be |
@ 06:51 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Recoil fadwell I got all my centrefire rifles SUPPRESSED...its not silenced unless you have 007 after your name !!!!!!I didnt do it for recoil reduction but are the first to admit I definately approve of how it tamed the 270 win with stout loads. I did it so what is left of my hearing lasts a bit longer... one day soon I will buy a pair of sterio earmuffs for duckshooting as cant hear where ducks are using mono ones. my .223 has fired lots of rounds when out after wallabies so that too is suppressed,its not only my ears that will benefit but my dogs,old dogs who are deaf ARENT a lot of fun anymore.... |
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@ 08:04 pm (GMT) |
VinceRe: Recoil fadAgreed on the hearing protection Mike, I don't shoot anything bigger than an air rifle these days unless it is suppressed or I am wearing "ears". I also don't shoot over dogs which I guess makes the decision making easier, particularly with bird shooting, don't know if you can effectively suppress a shotgun. It helps if you are like me and can't shoot a scatter gun to save yourself and don't do it very much.I probably confused this post by introducing silencers, I think Scott's original point was about trying to reduce recoil with spongy recoil pads and/or muzzle brakes on small calibre centrefires Cheers Vince |
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@ 07:38 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Recoil fadIn the US, you have to pay a $200 fee to the government for each suppressor you buy, so you don’t see them much. I can see the utility of a “can” on, say, a .308 20” brush gun. In the woods, or an open field, I don’t worry much about hearing protection, although I’ve got the earplugs-on-a-string around my neck, if time and circumstances permit. At the range, under a roof, ear protection is a must. Olin-Winchester had a contract with Pachmayr as early as 1960. I remember they used them on shotguns. My hunting buddy in 1981 had a Model 70 in 300WM with no recoil pad. Trap and skeet shooters must have demanded them, which is odd, considering their get-up with the padded shooting vests. |
@ 12:58 pm (GMT) |
Christopher HowseRe: Recoil fadI think the comparison of but plates on Walnut stocks and recoilbpads on Synthetic stocks of comparable production rifles is because the lighter synthetic s do recoil more for the came cartridge. I think there is a belief the timber also absorbs recoil to a degree.I believe that somewhere here a few years ago Nathan wrote something about soft and squishy recoil pads on rifles. To the effect of saying they are not on military rifles maybe and they don't necessarily make you a better shooter. It's all relevant. I have a couple of Tikka with Limbsaver pads. I've used older guns without them. I find over the bench that recoil is stout on .308 and up. I have a Baikal 12ga, it hurts both ends. I can comfortably shoot a stack of clay target ammo. Through my cheapish ATA and not be concerned. Threaded rifles are a Fad, or are they? Some countries allow suppressors with little restrictions so it's probably an easy step in the rifle production to run more through. The Tacticool crow probably like their Brakes, I say near a braked .308 at the range. Give me a break! Lattes and Man Buns should be reserved for Hipster cafes. O think we will see an increase in brakes for those who think they are Cool. I used a suppressed 7mmRM in South Africa, bit that's a thing there. Australia is far stricter on suppressors than South Africa or NZ. Rumour has it they may become.approved for more public use but I'm not holding my breath. Quality pads are a good choice for those who require them. |
@ 02:49 pm (GMT) |
David LenziRe: Recoil fadWell, gents... here's my two cents.1. Recoil pads reduce recoil... that's their reason for being. My shoulder doesn't have an impulse meter, but it's not terribly difficult to discern the difference between an inch of soft rubber compressing against my shoulder versus a metal butt plate allowing my shoulder to do that work on its own. 1a. To that end, recoil pads are a "shooter comfort" item. That is, they help the main source of error perform a bit better. From a consistency standpoint, there's no reason to conclude that a squishy bit of rubber that essentially constitutes an additional moving part is going to be better. However, if you give up, say, 1/10th MOA of mechanical accuracy for an improvement of 1/4 MOA in shooter performance, it's easy math... that's entirely dependent on you as a shooter. 2. I'm coming up on 17 years of uniformed service. For a belt fed like the M249 or M240, a recoil pad is mostly irrelevant because you're not firing a single shot and recoil management is a function of either outstanding technique or a really solid tripod. If you've got a recoil issue in a 30 lb GPMG, the recoil pad (or lack of) isn't the problem. With respect to our issued rifle, they are 5.56/.223 - recoil is simply not a factor we concern ourselves with. Most upgraded stocks have thin rubber on them for grip so you can keep the rifle in your shoulder or against your armor without issue. Accuracy is a lesser concern as compared to reliability, maintenance, etc. If you're up to it, you might expect between 2 and 3 MOA depending on the rifle. The objective for training is 4 MOA and the threshold considered marginal, but acceptable, is 6 MOA. You're unlikely to detect small changes geared towards accuracy optimization within that system. 2a. As a case in point, I would invite you to review the 7 inch handguards for general purpose use that contact the barrel directly. A tight sling with this setup is enough to produce misses at even modest distances. 12 inch, free floated handguards - which indisputably enhance accuracy and weapon handling under stress - have been available for years and have not been fielded for any but specialist organizations. |
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