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> Lead poisoning from lead projectiles
Lead poisoning from lead projectiles
@ 02:31 pm (GMT) |
Kevin JensenHi Guys, I stumbled on this article below in one of NZ's media outlets "Stuff". It is basically about a guy who wants hunters to send in minced up game samples for lead testing for a study. Just reading it, it seems very similar like the modus operand i used overseas in arguments against the use of lead projectiles. Below is the link for anybody who is interested. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/128655542/warning-for-hunters-meat-could-be-contaminated-with-lead |
Replies
@ 11:37 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesThanks, Kevin. There are 3 risks adduced by anti-lead-bullet lobbyists:1) risk of lead poisoning to human consumers of the meat, 2) risk to scavenger birds who consume discarded remains, 3) risk of ground water contamination from lead. The result of the NZ study will be interesting, as it will answer the first question. A recent study by Cambridge University found lead poisoning present in European scavenging birds, but did not distinguish between lead shotgun pellets and lead rifle bullets as the source. I haven’t seen any scientific study supporting the theory that lead bullets contaminate ground water. I suppose it’s possible they do at a rifle range, if there’re not recovered and recycled. |
@ 06:06 pm (GMT) |
Francis SaundersRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesYep I think this also must be from an article that is very similar in the latest nz rod & rifle.Also surprisingly on the back of the uk news that they will be pushing for a ban. Talking to my game dealer the other day. Looks like the ban might get knocked back a year or so as alternative ammo is on short supply due to shipping issues. |
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@ 06:11 pm (GMT) |
Francis SaundersRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesI really feel this is a storm in a tea cup.What I’d really like to see is figures on how many people are lead poisoned through shot game versus those that aren’t! Also added to the equation should be how much lead is in other food stuffs….. cereals for example versus meat. Wait those studies have already been done🤷♂️ |
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@ 07:56 pm (GMT) |
Francis SaundersRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesI wonder if they took a sample of ground water from some of the old battle fields around the world, to see what if any contamination is there. |
@ 09:46 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesSorry to drudge up this horrible thread but a reader has kindly passed on info from Europe that deserves some attention.The following is a news article regarding maladministration of lead bans in Europe. In a nut shell, the report used to initiate bans featured skewed data and was withheld (could not be studied to be argued against): https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/opinion/fair-play-out-of-reach-the-eus-approach-to-restricting-ammunition/ The 2021 document referred to in the news article can be found here. Note, the banning of lead is targeted at both hunters and fishermen. https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/da9bf395-e6c3-b48e-396f-afc8dcef0b21 Personally, I find this type of report to be disgusting. One can clearly see an attempt to overload the reader with data. The document is so very long that anyone attempting a push back, point by point, would be buried in paperwork, struggling to meet a court deadline (even if it had been shared in a timely manner). Some of the data is old / outdated, some is skewed / biased, other statements are false and misleading. Some statements are discriminatory. Justifications such as "banning lead would raise the IQ of hunter's children" comes across as though low IQ's among the children of hunters is a common fact. Apparently, stupid hunter's children are a major financial burden in Europe. The authors also discuss the economic loss of discarding blood shot meat, as though copper bullets have the magical ability to eliminate blood shot meat and bone fragments. The document also claims that perfectly suitable alternatives to lead bullets already exist - yet the document contains zero data on ballistics including the terminal ballistic effects of these alternatives. There is simply nothing within this document concerning the welfare of (compassion toward) game animals. One could put forth the exact same argument to ban copper water cylinders in New Zealand. For example, our rain water is highly acidic. Traditionally, rural people collected rain water via concrete tanks. The lime in these tanks helped to neutralize the water. Today however, rain water is collected in large plastic tanks. The acid rain water dissolves copper piping and especially hot water cylinder liners. Those who fill their jug from a hot tap are the worst effected. The level of blood copper in rural New Zealanders may be very high, resulting in extremely poor gut health and associated problems. Further to this, those drinking acid water combined with acidic drinks who have amalgam fillings, may also suffer mercury poisoning, yet mercury amalgams are still promoted as being safe in NZ. Based on what - another set of skewed data based on city folk drinking treated water? Fortunately, you don't need a one hundred page document to determine water acidity. If you collect rain water in a plastic tank, you simply need a pool testing kit. Again, sorry to drag this up. There are many things I would far rather be doing today. |
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@ 06:49 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesOn pages 208-210 they talk about hunting with bullets. They conclude, a priori, that the cost of advising hunters to remove contaminated meat outweighs the cost of banning lead bullets. Further, they conclude it’s impractical for hunters to remove contaminated meat. That’s hogwash.Further, they claim that removal of impacted meat would not reduce the risk to wildlife. In their table of authorities on page 98 they cite only 2 studies: 1) a study of ravens in Eastern Quebec during moose season 2) a California condor study. The rest of their authorities are European studies that don’t differentiate the effects of lead shotgun pellets from rifle bullets. The Canadian moose/raven study may be relevant. But the California condor study is bunk. In it, the authors state, “Linking actual deer harvest rates to blood lead levels in scavengers would be a worthwhile future research effort in our study area, although such work would be confounded by unknown levels of depredation, sport shooting of nongame wildlife, and illegal poaching, as well as a lack of spatially explicit harvest data from state agencies.“ |
@ 01:49 am (GMT) |
bryan longRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesIn Europe it's never been a debatethe European Commission proposed to ban Lead in hunting and fishing , they asked their own chemical agency for evidence to back up that proposal. They didn't ask for evidence to oppose their position Deal was done before it ever started. |
@ 07:35 am (GMT) |
Ryan CameronRe: Lead poisoning from lead projectilesQuote: I wonder if they took a sample of ground water from some of the old battle fields around the world, to see what if any contamination is there.
I imagine little to nothing if the surrounding water sources are basic or neutral. Lead only becomes dangerous when interacting with acids, even mild acids. I think exposed pure lead will oxidize a layer, PbO in air or form PbCO3 lead carbonate in water which itself is insoluble in water, it looks white and crystalline, super toxic but unless ingested or exposed to acids, isn't really a big deal. From a unbiased standpoint, I believe the risk to scavenging animals is the only valid concern here and can be easily remedied by hunters taking a shot animal out of the woods whole. Even the use of mono metals can have downsides, copper and brass can kill small trees. But like lead, brass and copper bullets won't kill a healthy tree with an established root system. Lead is becoming a buzz word and it all became a problem with modern water purification, chlorine in any compound is generally acidic and dissolves lead and it's compounds. This appears more like special interest pushing than actual assesment. |
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