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> P-14 found in the bottom drawer
P-14 found in the bottom drawer
@ 12:17 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanAs the headline says, the bottom drawer or my writing desk. Don't know how it got there, don't know who gave it to me. Looks as if someone had started modifying (sporterizing?) it. Has some issues, none too serious that alarm me. Some parts missing, but nothing I can't make, or find.Trying to find a good calibre now. Did a search on the forums for "P-14" and came across some good posts with some good suggestions. The one that really caught my eye was the .308 Norma. However, in one of the posts (sorry, my memory is failing, I can't remember who said what), it was mentioned that the bolt face did not need altering for the Norma. Mine will, not a big deal. If the face proves to be too difficult, I'll just turn the rim down on the cases. Barrel will more than likely be a Benchmark, 1-10" twist, 28" heavy bull (not quite straight taper), then it can do double duty at the bench and in the field. Had a look at the trigger mechanism. Looks like a military to me. Found a couple places that could use some modification to lighten the 12# pull and the 1/2" creep and the 1/4" overtravel (not really, but it seems that way). Seems to me I read somewhere here (memory fail yet again) that this type of Mauser-like action doesn't have the pillar on the front screw. The rear one is there, but I'm not sure if the front one is missing or if it ever had one. Anyone know? |
Replies
@ 03:18 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerhi Paul.that's a good score i'm lucky to find a stapler in my desk draw i think your talking about the thread for my p14 project so ill try give you as much info as i can. if your rifle is a p14 the bolt face is designed for the 303 brit rim so there no need to open it up for the belted magnum cases. if its got a p17 bolt it'll need work. i got a 308 norma magnum reamer made by mason reamers to suit the 208gr amax's the coal for this set up is longer then the standard C.I.P specs. if you wanted to run standard spec coal you, i would suggest finding a 30.06/p17 mag and bottom metal. you will how ever need to file/mill little bit of the receiver to fit it. you may also need to modify extractor. if you want to run the longer 208gr amax's then whole mag will need to be modified. trigger is simple get a timney they have a special one for the p14 and p17 not a standard mauser but in the same price bracket. check if cocking piece has been modified thou as this causes issues ,as it did on my other mauser the biggest issue is the barrel shank needs to be wider then the standard 1.230" as the receiver a bigger diameter then most standard guns. my project is currently with trueflite trying to workout if they can fit the barrel. check if your serial numbers match specially the barrel and receiver? the receivers are known to crack and the barrel will need to be relieved cut before unscrewing, if its the original barrel its less likely to be cracked. any questions don't hesitate to ask ill try my best to answer them. |
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@ 05:11 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerHey Thomas. Well, maybe I don't have a P-14 or a P-17, or maybe somebody did something to the bolt face, and that's why they gave it to me. I checked the numbers for case rim size vs. bolt face diameter and something is definitely wrong. My books say the .303 rim is anywhere from .530 - .540". That's quite a range for a "maximum". I pulled a case out of the bucket and put the calipers on it: 0.524" for a .303. I tried a belted mag case: 0.528.5". Theoretically, that mag case should fit in the bolt face, but it doesn't. Well, not without a bit of help. Yet, the Brit slides right in. I'm going to have to look a little closer as to what is going on. I'll get back to you as soon as I find something. |
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@ 05:31 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerWell, it wasn't easy, but it was on the net. Found thishttps://books.google.ca/books?id=tuVUMLRE47UC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=p14+rifle+bolt+face+extractor&source=bl&ots=tIBqF1jkAF&sig=y8tJvXpRv4KVbraTpCexjI-3luc&hl=en&ei=Y4uLTZW8FMO_tgf1ru38DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false. If you scroll to the second page, it has a good picture of the bolt faces. Turns out it is a P-14. Just not to sure why the difference with the cases. More investigative to do. Be back soon. |
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@ 05:40 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerhi paul.unfortunately i don't have my gun here to check things over. try disassembling bolt remove extractor as this may be your problem, it may need to be modified. also remember to feed case up from the bottom under it. |
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@ 04:25 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerAfter checking my brass vs. SAAMI specs, I've come to the conclusion that just because someone set a recommendation, nobody else needs to adhere to it. After all, it is just a suggestion.As to the bolt face, this is what I found. As I said earlier, the std. mag. cases are size for size with the rim on the bolt, so they will go in with some convincing and if they are perfectly aligned. The Brit cases slide in with a little over one thou clearance. (This is all with the extractor removed from the bolt, on the bench. There is no barrel.) The inside diameter of the rim on bolt is approximately 0.527", spec is 0.560". The depth from the front of the rim to the bolt face is approximately 0.035", spec is 0.060". There are tooling marks visible on the bolt face that appear to have been made by two different operations. One set looks to be lathe tooling, the other an end mill. Both sets appear to have been there since day one, but this is a guess, as I have limited optical equipment. Neither set of tooling marks are sharp, they are both well flattened, especially in the area of the face where the primer locates. The overall surface appearance is what I would expect from something that is near a hundred years old. The action is an Eddystone, low serial number, so it may be safe to assume that it was made during wartime, which would allow for the difference between spec and actual. From some of the histories, it is indicated that between the three different contractors, there could have been enough difference in manufacturing processes to allow for these variance, as not all parts were interchangeable. |
@ 09:03 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerAt the end of the day, the most important factor to consider is that the P14 / M1917 looks sexy.And per chance, it is a strong and well designed action. But seriously, on the old rifles, so long as you can obtain good tolerances during the project they can turn out very well. Things like misaligned scope mount screws can really ruin your day. Locking lugs that are way out of whack can be a pain too because you can't take much material away without compromising temper etc. So you do need to try and get your ducks in a row before getting too far ahead (as you have been doing). |
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@ 09:34 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerThanks, Nathan, for both the reply and the input. Further to your comment regarding the temper/surfacing of the lugs, do you happen to have a spec for the length of the lugs? One of the first things I looked at when discovering this action was the lugs. Someone had already lapped them in. They have done a good job, but not having done it myself, I have no way of knowing how far they took it? Any hints or numbers I could work with? |
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@ 09:57 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerBugger. Numbers are again meaningless here in the same manner as you described before. The depth of case hardening can vary so much too.Have they been lapped or have they worn in? Deeper lines would suggest they have been worn in. By the same token, a high finish does not necessarily mean they have been lapped. A high finish with a few deeper marks would indicate wear. A very uniform finish might indicate lapping. Have to keep in mind that field dust and or continuous use of warm loads can put a shine on them. If they are really hard, the finish can end up quite glassy. Few folk lapped the old guns. If it had a target barrel on it and was used for comp- perhaps. But if it was just a sporterized rifle, I doubt it has been lapped and being a .303, most smiths have always been concerned about head spacing and split case heads on these. If it does not have scope base screw holes, it most definitely won't have been lapped, even if used for military comp shoots. It just wasn't the done thing. How do you set your lugs true without lapping- simple, just run loads at 70-120,000psi! (I am kidding guys- it can happen this way but its not advisable...). |
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@ 09:59 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerTo reiterate, you'll see more problems on a tricked up rifle than one that is close to original. |
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@ 11:06 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerI wish I could show you what I see, but unfortunately my optical equipment belongs on the ark. I'll try to describe it starting with the bolt. In comparing the marks on the P-14 lugs with lugs on my Ruger (that I know are lapped) they are very similar. Clean lines, extending into any pits that are present. Bright steel, but not a mirror-like gloss like hammered steel. The edges of the lugs show what I believe to be the original relief cuts. They are rough-ish and discoloured (black) inside the machining marks. Also, the burrs from the "lapping" extend into and over these machining marks. There is some evidence that whoever did this tried to clean it up with something, but it didn't work very well. It probably looked ok from a distance in the dark, but not under magnification. The matching surfaces inside the receiver also show clean and bright, but not shiny. There are also areas on one surface where the process hit some high points and missed a fairly large low point, only to catch the next high point again. Neither of these areas in the receiver show any signs of being hammered (fired) as the fine grinding marks are clearly visible.There is only one hole drilled and tapped on the top of the receiver, at the rear where the sights would have been. It is between the ears, or what's left of them, and just forward of a fairly deep milled slot. The front of the receiver above the threads is clean, no holes. My best guess is that someone started to make something with this action and decided that just buying a rifle would be easier. But who knows? I don't even know how far I'll take it. The first thing I have to do is build the detent used in the safety (if a ball bearing doesn't work), and find a suitable spring for it as well. I really hope this works out as a usable action. The tolerances that are built into it are incredible. This thing is massive, relatively speaking. They didn't skimp on steel, that's for sure. |
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@ 03:32 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerOK, what I want you to do is take a new small file and actually run it over the lug but not to cut it. Let it pass gently and feel it with zero weight, just the weight of the file only. Then do the same again but a bit with light pressure. Then again a bit harder. Keep doing this until you get the result.The goal, to feel the finish while trying to avoid cutting. Again, the file needs to be new / low use. I think this is going to be the only way. If the file picks up and wants to cut, the lugs are soft. If its glass hard, it should be the same outer temper as the file and the file should not cut. Probably sounds dodgy to a novice but like I say, a file cannot cut steel of the same or higher temper and if it does cut- well then it may not be the best action to with anyway, so its better to know. If there are still high and low spots, there should be some temper remaining. If the action was used heavily, it may even have work hardened. |
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@ 04:48 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerhere's some photo's i had off my receiver paul in case they are any help don't have any of bolt sorry.it still had original barrel but different bolt and had the open sights when i got it so pretty sure the lugs were just worn in. should also mention the p14 has tapered lugs from memory to speed up cycling of the bolt.   
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@ 06:02 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerThanks Thomas. It is an exact match by the looks of it. Even down to the same guy owned it, judging by the build up of crud! They sure collected crap in every nook. Thanks for putting up the photos. I'll have to wait until morning to go out to the shop and get a file and do Nathan's test. Sure hope this action is good. Did Truflite get back to you on your barrel? Were they going to get you a different diameter blank? |
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@ 06:35 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerThomas - re-reading your first response, and you mentioned that the barrel tenon was a problem in regards to the blank diameter. Do you have the diameter of your action threads? Mine measure out to the point where a standard 1.240" barrel will do just fine. I may be a little bit out on the numbers, but by calculation it seems that they are 1.125" X 10TPI, square threads. |
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@ 06:26 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerI see, says the blind man. It is not the threads. It is the shoulder diameter. Yes, this could be very problematic. Time to start looking for barrel makers. |
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@ 09:18 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerNathan - did your file test on the lugs. Inconclusive. I can mark the lapping marks contrary to their direction (for visual confirmation), but the file will not "cut" into the lugs. It feels very much like glass-on-glass. While this may be what we are looking for, I am no longer confident with the integrity of this bolt. I have ordered a replacement and if it is available, great. If not, then the whole project gets scrapped. |
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@ 09:52 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerI fully understand your concern Paul and for safety sake your more then welcome to send me the action ha ha.I'm sure you could get it rockwell tested but It sounds fine to me. You could start off using soft primers and brass if your concerned about it. |
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@ 10:47 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerOK, a mix of soft and hard. It could be a go but like you say, it can pay to play it safe.OK, I am going to jump right down the rabbit hole now of home workshopping. In the old days, there were no high tech temp controlled bake ovens. It was expected that heat treatment be done by eye. Later on we had colour charts to work with. But that was about the only change up until more recent times. If your bolt becomes a spare, then you could play with the following, using a gas plant, bolt hanging down. Steps Mop buff the bolt head till its shiny (without really removing material). Heat the head to cherry as evenly as possible. Apply Caseneit to rear of lugs while cherry. Reheat apply heat and keep up at cherry for a few seconds. Quench in heavy diff oil / chain bar oil. Once cool, re-polish ever so lightly to bring part back to white (needs to be a flannelette buff and autosol etc) for inspection. Reheat to straw to make sure part is tough not brittle (this and the slowish cool in heavy oil are key). This was the step omitted in the low number Springfields which blew up. Finish with the file test again. Not for the faint hearted. The lug rebates should have plenty of strength left as you can see from Thomas's pics. Only so much is lapped away with grit / use etc. There is still a good deal of hard material and still that good mix of hard and soft for strength. The surface area and depth of the material is far greater than the bolt lugs. The one thing I don't like about posting this stuff is that it is potentially unsafe and without 'modern' testing equipment, there are no guarantees. You could add a slow cool step at the beginning if you like (to soften the inner which needs to be soft). If you heat to cherry and slow cool, this will be like starting all over again with a new billet of steel. Then reheat to cherry, apply casenit, more heat to let the casenit enter the steel, then quench. OK- here is my safety warning. These instructions are dangerous. Everything is dangerous, I suggest you avoid this job completely, wrap up in memory foam and never leave home. In fact, I suggest for safety that you ask a private health care provider to put you into an induced coma until your natural death. As a further warning, sugar is bad. Every teaspoon of sugar contains one full cup of sugar. |
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@ 04:15 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerAs with many projects, one has to be adaptable to change. So, while I'm waiting for my new bolt to show up, I've decided to go ahead and re-treat the old bolt. Whether it was compromised or not is a moot point now. I'm going to try to bring it back from the boneyard. If it works, great. If not, there's another one coming (I hope).Thomas - was it you that was looking for the safety lever for a P-14? Let me know, I have a link to what appears to be a good source of surplus parts. |
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@ 06:57 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerhi paul.i think it was ben grady looking for a safety. i'm not sure if i talk for all kiwi but i am for one jealous of how easy it is to get gun parts in america, not sure people understand how difficult it can be here sometimes. i have had few issues finding a mosin nagant extractor and a mauser cocking piece. be interested to hear how you get on with retreating it Paul. does anyone know where to get casenit from in nz, i have seen it come up few times and would like to experiment with some. |
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@ 06:19 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerHey Thomas. First thing, I'm Canadian. So we are pretty well in the same boat as you guys. Difficult, but not impossible. Lots of paperwork and permits, etc. We can usually get parts across the border, but some things are cost prohibitive. As an example: as you know there is a lot of hype about the ELD and ELD-X bullets. I found an American supplier who was more than willing to ship them to me. Cost for the bullets was around USD$32, converted to CAD$45. I could live with that. The cost of the permit to get one box across the border: USD$245.00.From what I've read about the Casenit (Kasenit) is that it has been deemed dangerous, toxic or something just plain nasty, and has been taken off the market. Something about the cyanide content. |
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@ 09:49 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerPaul, this is your fault for not using the Canadian language properly in your posts.To quote you: Hey Thomas. First thing, I'm Canadian. So we are pretty well in the same boat as you guys. Correct use of language: Hey Thomas. First thing, I'm Canadian eh. So we are pretty well in the same boot as you guys eh. |
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@ 09:51 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerThomas, this is a product Paul found:http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/46.htm |
@ 10:18 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerI remember at trade school we made drill gauges and then they where case hardened (Carburizing) in an oven full of carbon. Held at a set temperature for a set amount of time depending on the depth of hardening required. This will case harden the whole bolt which may be a bad thing?https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carburizing Check this book out (The Springfield 1903 Rifles: The Illustrated, Documented Story of the Design ...By William S. Brophy) the link below should take you to page about case hardening 03 Springfield . I hope it works https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vb3dDN9FiekC&pg=PA543&lpg=PA543&dq=case+hardening+rifle+Bolt&source=bl&ots=Mb_jIBC_y0&sig=C4M3CdXDSI0bnj_axQQkhq5Bn40&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDns2Gr4zLAhUjF6YKHQpHBgcQ6AEIOjAN#v=onepage&q=case%20hardening%20rifle%20Bolt&f=false |
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@ 02:05 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: P-14 found in the bottom drawerEh? Sorry, eh. Too much back bacon grease on my typing finger, eh. Yeah, sorry, eh. Spilt my beer on the typing board eh. Shoulda said that, sorry, eh. Then my toque stuck to my stash,eh, cuz the maple syrup was too fresh cuz the dogs had a trail packed to my cousins igloo, eh. He's a lumberjack,eh. He's kind of my brother too I think,eh. Maybe not but we both call him Uncle Dad and his sister's really cute, eh? Her mum owns the likker store don't you know,eh? Later, eh? Sorry for the spelln eh. Its wot they tot us in skool, eh?**Tranlsasted from the original Canadian by Kiwipedia. |
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