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> Precision long range hunting and shooting
> Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bullet
Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bullet
@ 05:30 am (GMT) |
David GausepohlTipped GameKing long-range hunting bullet. High weight retention does not sound like a good feature on a long-range hunting bullet, even if it expands fast. The already developed TMK is better for that is it not? |
Replies
@ 07:37 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletHi David, I have not heard anything about this. Also, the Sierra techs have in the past been very clear as to how the GK is designed to shed weight as a means to transfer maximum energy. If you have any links, please share. |
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@ 07:39 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletJust got Luke's link. Thanks. |
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@ 07:48 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletWow, thats quite incredible. The next time I want to hunt ballistics gel or dead animals at an impact velocity of 3000fps, I'll be sure to use these. And by gosh it does well on bone- you know that stuff that most hunters miss at long ranges.Well, that answers my question as to why the techs went quiet on me a few months back. I offered to help them rebrand the existing TMK in a smooth manner that would go over well with the public but rather than communicate openly as they have done in the past, they went quiet on me. Now I know why, they were making a green tipped ELD-X. So yes David, you were correct in the first instance. |
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@ 07:53 am (GMT) |
Luke LRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletJust saw this announced on the Sierra website they are rolling out a full line of new tipped game king bullets. After the tipped match kings came our this was pretty well inevitable. They look pretty good. So far poking around the midway USA website I found the following listed (there could be more):.308 165 gr BC 0.53 0.284 165 gr BC 0.61 this looks like it could be pretty sweet in the 7 Mags 0.243 90 gr BC 0.49 If this will stabilize in my 10 twist Tikka 243 I will definitely try this one out. I wonder if Nathan had any opportunity to offer any input into the design? Here is the link to the 7mm 165 gr bullet: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/284840/sierra-gamechanger-tipped-gameking-bullets-284-caliber-7mm-284-diameter-165-grain-polymer-tipped-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-100 The little ad video on the Sierra website: https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm Sierra doesnt seem to be pushing it as a true long range bullet but an updated improved BC Game King for general purpose hunting, perhaps that's not a bad thing either. |
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@ 08:06 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletYes that's a fair point Luke, my negative comments aside, you are quite right. Like the ELD-X, the design has merit. Both you and David have made fair points.You will have to excuse me, I do get annoyed when communications have been going fine for some time but then suddenly fall away. It means that there is no real trust. I try to operate openly with all of you, have kept our business / research transparent all the way through. |
@ 08:15 am (GMT) |
Luke LahdenrantaRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletThey still could offer a true long range offering alongside the tipped game king in the future. Perhaps their plan is to update the Game king line then they could offer a game king LR with the same translucent green tip that is essentially just the tipped match king but branded with the game king.I noticed that as well in the promo video that they didn't at least have a couple token whitetails dropping instantly with high shoulder/spine/neck shots. That seems a requirement for every bullet or ammo promo video. Even if these are a bit disappointing for true long range hunters, an updated high bc game king I don't think will be a bad thing. If they perform at least as well as the old game kings it could be a good open country choice to mid range for many of us regular hunters. |
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@ 08:21 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletIts good to see that you are noticing such things as the spine shot promo videos. It pleases me to see you guys looking beyond the hype.I am just getting old and jaded now, perhaps a bit grumpy because my 30lb tactical Creedmoor is cutting into my bra strap. Hard to say. I will test these as soon as they are available here. |
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@ 08:49 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletSpeaking of transparency, David Manson and I are still working on new reamers with improved OAL's and leade angles to suit these evolving bullet designs. So if any of you are in the market for a new barrel in .280, .280 AI, 7mm RM, .30-06, .30-06 AI or .300 Win Mag, you may want to wait until we have finalized these reamers. Should not be too far away now. I will send out a blog with full details as soon as Manson Reamers begin production. |
@ 11:18 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletI’m particularly interested to hear about the .30-06 reamer, Nathan. My fondness for the old horse continues unabated. |
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@ 01:49 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletActually that's not all quite true (transparency). This year we lost 4 months, the pair of us working on a foreign counter terror project. I wrote a short book for medical ER teams which annoyed a bunch of ballistics toffs and I helped on two forensics cases with a positive conviction on the second. But I have not wanted to mention any of this work publicly on the website as there are already too many people offering their useless 'military', 'tactical' or 'CSI' services. I don't want to be aligned with any of it. Its a whole new level of bullshit. Net result, it put us several months behind this year, hence why updates to the KB and vids have been so slow. |
@ 03:39 am (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletHey gents! I too have been following the release of the new TGKs closely. This does appear to have been a very hush hush bullet until its recent release, and it's been made exclusively available only to MidwayUSA. As soon as I heard about them, I emailed the ballistic tech I know at Sierra inquiring about them. I wanted to know jacket thicknesses, etc. He said due to administrative rules, he couldn't give me exact measurements, but that the jackets on the TGKs are "nearly double" the thickness of the TMKs. He said they do taper from base to ogive though. He also said the cores are made with a harder alloy. This was not music to my ears, but made more sense why they went with a 165gr in .308' versus anything heavier. These seem to have a very similar construction/composition to a Nosler BT. I'd venture to say they'll behave terminally nearly identical to a 165gr Nosler BT.I live 30 minutes from the Sierra factory, and I asked him if there was any way I could get my hands on a few for dissection and testing of my own. He said even he hasn't been able to get a box yet, and that they are only available through Midway USA for the next month or so. I like that Sierra has released a tipped hunting bullet, but I'm not real happy in the direction they went with it. I have tried to convince them over the past year to simply rebrand batches of TMKs as TGKs to get around the politics of nomenclature. They've said they can't advertise TMKs as expanding because they have the "MatchKing" nomenclature, and because they use the MatchKings for defense contracts that stipulate they cannot be designed to expand. I get that, but all that would take is a change of nomenclature, not necessarily a change in design. I get though that they determined a thicker jacket will help for thy close range shooting hunters that don't understand impact velocity rules and shot placement. Plus, the whole public demand for weight retention. I wish people would get over that crap. I am currently using the 195gr TMK with great success in my 308. I'm getting them to 2700fps using Varget and Winchester brass. That has me at 1600fps at around 850 yards, and 1400fps around 1050 yards. I've managed to harvest a large 9-point whitetail so far with them. Dropped him in full rut at 144 yards. Looking forward to more this fall, and hopefully to much further distances. The balance of sectional density/mass and frangibility, plus the high BC, makes for an excellent bullet. I sent you a message on Facebook the other day about this subject Nathan, so since I decided to get on here, like I should have, you can disregard that message if you choose. |
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@ 04:25 am (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletAlso, unlike the ELDX, these do not feature a bonding ring. I'd really like to know how the jacket thicknesses compare though between these new bullets, the ELDX, the original SGKs, and the Nosler BTs.I did ask the tech how the opening/cavity in the 165gr compares to the one of the 168gr TMK, and he said that the nose and boat tail are the same shape. The only real difference is jacket thickness/construction and alloy use for the core. Unfortunately, these bullets will likely not be great at all for true long range hunting, but for close range work, I suppose they'd be fine. I have more confidence in Sierra's quality and advertised BCs vs Nosler, so I'll bet they still beat the Nosler BTs. It's a shame they wouldn't work with you on this Nathan. I tried offering my suggestions to them as well, which also fell on deaf ears. I wish more bullet manufactures could understand the real benefits of a bullet shedding weight and transferring its energy, instead of retaining weight. I wish they'd spend more time with marketing by educating the hunter of this and showing him/her why they want that over the tradition bonded weight-retaining bullet. Instead of just bowing to the demand, why not educate and get rid of the misconceptions? Educate the hunter on how to properly select the bullet for their application. I know you understand this Nathan, as you've dedicated your life to this very task. We all love you and appreciate your every effort! If I could quit my job and move out there and work side by side with you, I'd do it in a heartbeat! |
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@ 07:28 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletAll very good points and observations Aaron. Thanks also for your kind words. I was on a facebook checking up on something a few days ago, noticed I am currently 99 messages behind. Unfortunately facebook is the last on my list of coms, having the forum, email, skype and phone to contend with. My apologies. |
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@ 08:42 am (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletNo worries Nathan. I know Facebook isn’t something you guys use much. Hell, I wish I could get myself away from it. I meant to make a post on here a couple days ago about these bullets, but had to reset my password and then got busy at work. I was surprised but happy to see it has already been brought up. |
@ 02:15 am (GMT) |
Kenneth KephartRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletThere was a day wher the Barnes X bullet use to shed it's petals. Some gun writer complained about the lost weight. The resulting public outcry, misinformed as it was, demanded that the petals not shed off. Giving us the Barnes bullets of today.Luckily Cutting Edge has their petals shed. As far as the new TGK, i'm seeing it performing much like the Nosler Ballistic Tip. Which puts it in good company. Has been too long in the making! |
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@ 02:18 am (GMT) |
Kenneth KephartRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletJust wanted to add...I wish they had released the 7mm in 150gr instead of 165gr. Would have a more general purpose quality in my opinion. |
@ 08:51 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletHi Aaron,I'd love to know about your 2700fps load. I have been gifted some AR2208 (Varget before it is Varget) and I'm looking to develop a load. |
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@ 09:47 am (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletIt’s still a work in progress, but I’m using Winchester brass to give me the most internal case volume I can get. That’s what is allowing me to get those kind of speeds. I’ve got the 195gr TMKs seated to a COAL of 2.88”, which has them about .040” off my lands. I’m running these in a Savage model 10 with afactory 24” barrel. The throats are but shorter on the Savages. I’m using Federal 210 Match primers and currently testing loads in the 46gr area. |
@ 04:17 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletyip this is all over the forums....a re invention of the wheel.... anyone heard any update on the subsonic ballistic tip projectiles Hornady were releasing???? big fat blunt jobbies with light jackets was the hype.... |
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@ 07:54 am (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletSo Sierra has now said that the minimum impact velocity for these will be in the 1800-2000fps range. So, not a great “long range” bullet, but I already knew that based on their construction. I just wanted to update this thread with that info. |
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@ 08:28 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletThanks Aaron, much appreciated. Yes, it certainly fits the description. |
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@ 03:49 pm (GMT) |
David GausepohlRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletQuote: ...1800-2000fps range...
Thanks Aaron for verifying this. I guess Midway jumped the gun calling these LR bullets. |
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@ 12:50 am (GMT) |
Aaron PetersonRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletI actually haven’t seen Midway or Sierra advertise or claim them to be “long range” bullets. They just talk about high BC and accuracy, which might imply long range characteristics, but I’ve yet to actually see them advertise them as actual long range hunting bullets. That’s good, because they’re definitely not the best long range choice. Luckily, they already make the answer for that, but it’s advertised as a target bullet. That bullet being the TMK. What I find peculiar is that the TMK is essentially just an improved original GameKing, making it more of an actual Tipped GameKing. The ogive is longer on the TMK, but the jackets thickness and cores are the same. I’m still scratching my head as to why Sierra decided to change the bullet construction so much making this Tipped GameKing. They could have just made a line of TMKs with the new translucent tips and made them heavy for caliber to reduce the number of people using light weight versions at high impact velocities in medium to large game. Just some thoughts, and the way I always envisioned it going down. |
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@ 06:35 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletAll good observations Aaron. |
@ 10:59 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Sierra's new TGK (tipped GameKing) LR bulletI feel like in some ways they followed nosler theory with the LRABrather then adopting a bullet design that works at lower velocity they have tried to increase bc to avoid lower velocity shots still waiting for heavier 6.5 and 270 tmk instead though. |
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