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> Shot Placement - 400 - 600 Yards
Shot Placement - 400 - 600 Yards
@ 06:00 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichFirearm: .308 - Cartridge: 168gr Federal Hybrid Hunter with Berger Bullet. Currently striking within a 4 inch radius @ 600 yards.Is the area 3 inches forward of the lungs and 3 inches above the heart the best area to aim small on Whitetail and Mule deer for an ethical quick kill? |
Replies
@ 12:27 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsMy preferred placement is forwards Frank, far as base of neck but at 600 with a 168-308 drift may catch you out at times. Can and probably will at some stage push reward & possibly slip between ribs.......I would not be confident with that projectile on light/med game. Had horrible results with the Bergers even with more power/energy on larger deer. With a TMK or ELD-M of same weight you gain performance in every way and will take that every time. Not ranting, just our findings. I just watched Nathans 223 Barnes goat video and it brought back some horrible memories of testing with Nathan using the 308. One of these he put up online, many of the others l demanded an Amax load to finish the poor animal! |
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@ 04:58 pm (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsAppreciate your response! I've practiced with the Zmax. Then Barnes. Both accurate but lacking the punch at long range. Thought the ELD X was the best. Now for accuracy the Berger has been the best. Possibly due to my improvement with controlling the rifle. Putting it all together. A few years past I considered and stated the ELD M was an unethical bullet for ungulates. Live and learn. Last evening I was comparing the Berger and ELD M / A Max specifications.The longest successful shot i placed on an ungulate was 300 yards with a 30 06. One shot into the spine. I was reloading and found 54.1gr of powder for 180 Spitzer boat tail. Circa 1980. I thought nothing was best and scoffed at .308. Now my go to rifle. I would not want to maim the prey. Hence asking those who will share their knowledge. Thanks Martin. I'll give a go to the ELD M / A Max . Cheers Eh! |
@ 07:47 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsI watched that 223 vs goat video, too. First one where I felt sorry for the goat! In his recent talk at the deer hunting club, Nathan mentioned Berger’s 2011 design change, where they thickened the jacket. Interesting that they still market the product as having the ability to penetrate several inches and then violently come apart. Marty says Hornady and Sierra match bullets are the bullets-of-choice for long-range. It’s almost as if these companies accidentally stumble upon suitable long-range designs, but then market “hunting” bullets designed to produce that “perfect mushroom” at closer ranges. I guess there’s no such thing a bullet suitable for all distances. So dual-loading would seem be the way to go. |
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@ 08:05 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsDual loading is the best method. I agree Scott. I had decided not to use the ELD X for short range. Dropped the ELD X as accuracy with the Berger IS outstanding. From those willing to share their knowledge, regarding long range bullets, I'm able to shift the choice to a bullet suitable for providing an ethical harvest. Back to prone on the dirt for another session.Great to receive feedback. Cheers! |
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@ 02:46 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsWhen you say "lacking punch" Frank what do you mean?Are all these test projectiles the same weight? Are you looking for big exit wounds at range? Be very cautious, the Bergers accuracy is a trap that many have fell for when developing hunting loads (including myself). And boy DO they group in all my 30's. This load needs to perform when things don't go the same as in the Online hunting videos! If it drifts forward and low will the shock of a windpipe hit fell the animal. Will the Berger (or similar design) expand with the low resistance and 308's falling velocity? The Hornady guys that developed the older Amax series where definitely hunters, l recall discussing it with Nathan many times years ago. Not sure on the current ballisticians though. They did not market the A-Zmax as hunting rounds for many reasons but l can assure you they perform extremely well from very light to med game/deer. The Sambar deer l mostly hunt head into the heavy class, getting similar to Elk in size. Remembering this is hunting with shot placement, not snap shots whilst stalking. I dual load in this projectile weight class as Scott has suggested 308 & 06. 168 Interbond for walking in/out and Z max for extended. These 2 shoot identically, same loads/jump and cannot be separated from each other to max effective ranges. I don't know about the Eld M-X, I have only just purchased these, Covid and other stuff has slowed any testing with the 308's new barrel. |
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@ 04:20 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsRegarding lacking punch: Long and short answer versions. Short answer reply in this message.Discussing shot placement and long range placement with a small man firing a magnum calibre. He scoffs at .308 stating placement and accuracy are over rated as hitting an animal with a magnum bullet knocks it down. He states that if he put on a leather jacket and stood at 600 yards the 168 gr bullet wouldn't penetrate. Soooo you can't shine shit and you can't fix stupid. BUT thinking about the velocity and energy at these ranges I decided to better understand the down range "Force". No I didn't put a leather jacket on a mammal down range. I used lumber. Spruce 2 x 6 blocks, scraps, bonded to plywood like material with target 8.5 x 11 inch stapled to the surface. Supported upright with an 45 degree rear brace from ground to back of plywood. Not up to gel block material standards but providing a method to visualize "Punch - Force - Energy". @ 500 Yards Not scientifically documentable but providing the belief a leather jacket would be penetrated at 500 yards. Hahaha. Used 168 Barnes - Z-Max - Berger. Berger appeared to be most destructive and was most accurate. Possibly more destructive as it is an all metal bullet. Possibly the meplat of Barnes and Z-Max lessen the "Punch"? No longer using the ELD X 178 gr as the harmonics on the barrel/rifle are not providing reliable grouping. Z-Max: Never realized it is a version of the A-Max or a hunting bullet. 500 Yards: Vel Energy Berger: 1919 1375 Z-Max: 1904 1353 Barnes: 1883 1323 ELD M: 1901 1350 A bit of background: After purchasing "The Books" and accurizing the rifle and my shooting techniques long range knowledge develops. Caught up in accuracy with the Berger and not "Knowing" that the A Max / ELD M is a reliable bullet for hunting even though it is marketed as a target bullet. As stated in a previous post but not clearly I will purchase the ELD M and test . I'm listening to those with the knowledge and experience to avoid failure as much as possible. Thanks for the feedback! Cheers! |
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@ 11:41 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsTerrific to read that you are working through this Frank, great stuff.Your 500 yard test has one major flaw in that animals are not solid like your blocks. This knockdown/over test or Force test really doesn't give the answer needed, same as shooting water filled jugs. We need to dump energy into the animal not the dirt behind it. The further the range the greater the need and that's not calibre specific. This is why weight and construction are critical factors that cannot be overlooked when hunting, amplified by range. All of these have to be matched to the games weight/construction, Terminal performance is the term & is well covered in the books. A terrific fella named Bob Marvin used the 168 z-max 30-06 combo to cull all breeds of deer, pigs & light game from close to out far. Purposely using different placement and ranges and his results where excellent. The 208 grain Amax has to be the best all round 30 cal hunting projectiles by far. As good at 20 yards as it is 700, though it was never advertised or recommended for this use. Please, please, please do not use Barnes bullets at extended ranges. Use them at stalking ranges driven as fast as the cartridge will allow. That company should be strung up for advertising them as "long-range". |
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@ 03:25 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsInteresting information regarding shot placement at different ranges. More research required on my part.Once again thank you for taking time to provide feedback. Cheers! |
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@ 06:17 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsI wonder if Barnes saw the lead bans coming and got lucky, or simply capitalized on the belief that penetration, with a little mushrooming thrown in, is everything? Who wouldn’t want a pass-through blood trail if you assume the animal is going to dead-run? I guess for short-range snapshots in the woods, like raking shots through hind quarters, they serve a purpose. But are such shots really worth it? Where I live, buckshot is legal for deer. Talk about low on the ethics-pole! |
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@ 11:10 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsBarnes have their place and can be very effective if used suitably, just stay in close and pass on the longer shots.With your shot placement at extended ranges the intended point of impact (POI) may stay the same (safest is broadside vitals) but the actual POI may move considerably due to environmental, poor shot, angle or movement etc. The further out the more compounded the effects. 400-600 is inside the 308's effective range given the correct combo on your deer but plans don't all ways work the way we want & its up to us as hunters to minimize these effects. Reread Nathans info on how bullets kill & 308w, then you can use it to suit your situation. Train as you will shoot in the field, off the bench just doesn't work other than for development. Use your intended field rest, range finder & dial up cold bore shots and make them stick even on the shitter days. |
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@ 03:46 pm (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsDifficult to pass on the Berger Hybrid Hunter as accuracy is paramount at extended range. No shoulder or scapula shots. Lungs are the intent at extended range. |
@ 01:10 am (GMT) |
Mike RRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsUm, really |
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@ 05:34 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsIn his Long Range Hunting Cartridges book (p. 76), Nathan devotes 5 pages to the Berger bullets, explaining in great detail why he thinks they are a poor choice. Marty reached the same conclusion with his own independent testing. Nathan’s advice is: If you’re going to use them, dive them through large bone to initiate expansion. |
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@ 06:24 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsMike R. Page 21 Long Range Hunting Cartridges. Um Really is a rather vague statement. Sarcasm or?? Where would you place a shot with a .308W @ 600 yards?Scott. Nathan's statement about Berger is Circa 2016 as you read the area regarding annealing bullets this date is referenced. No testing of Hybrid Hunter bullets. In the section discussing. 308W there is a great volume of information for the Hornady bullets. So! I drew an antlered Mule and will also have a Whitetail tag this unting season. Wish me luck Eh! I will document a long distance strike. Berger is Best!! Best accuracy of all cartridges tested! |
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@ 12:11 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsHi Frank. Good points! If you’re hunting in a place you can track and retrieve easily, go for it! |
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@ 12:19 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsFrank, Nathan is continually retesting projectiles and is on these very pages less often because of ongoing ballistics work. Don't you think he would amend the books if any major gains had been made in what was once the "go to" projectile for LR hunting!Simply stated..... The 168 Berger will not produce good expansion at 600 yards @ 308w velocities with a lung shot. You WILL need bone to initiate expansion and fingers crossed turn into secondary fragmentation. If you miss ribs on entry as l wrote earlier the animal will die eventually from a pinhole wound to "hopefully" both lungs. How long this will take?? I you miss lung and hit liver worse again. You cannot guarantee youe 4" kill zone placement under field conditions @5-600 yards. Use this info or not, its just info. The outcomes will be yours to own and hopefully things work out well. |
@ 12:45 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsMy thoughts. And what I did for my 6.5x55 swede was 0 - 250yrds 140gn Partition 200-400yrds 140gn A-Max. Both with MV of 2850fps. Aim Partition for the vital organs close range. Aim for vitals and smash front suspension wheels n shock absorbers. Lung shots run hide and die.... good luck with finding Nemo at 450 yards when he's run 150 odd more from where you ventilated his lungs! Why'd they invent road spikes???All I did was what Sensei Foster said to do! CHE FECE… IL GRAN RIFIUTO For some people there comes a day when they must declare the great YES or the great NO. He who has the YES moves forward in honour to fulfilment. He who refuses, does not regret. Asked again, he would still say NO. Yet that No, the right No, condemns him for the rest of his days. by C. P. Cavafy (1863-1933) You may like to read Rudard Kipling's poem "IF" .... |
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@ 02:29 pm (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsI dual load 2x Ptn on top and Amax below.But if you where to down load some Amax so that there doing your full power loads 500yrd speed at 100yrds you can save some powder and use Amax in close without the risk of bullet blowup???? Just colour code your F1 rounds from your Tractor pulling ones! Or maybe just slow down and get CLOSER to your food..... |
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@ 04:02 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsBurn the candle at both ends! |
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@ 12:28 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsGentlemen!I’ve scrapped the internet sites specifically for .308W and 168gr Federal Hybrid Hunter. This is no hope in hoping BUT I do want to believe there is truth to statements made about this cartridge. One being it is a game stopper when shot placement is the lung area @ 400 yards. I pursue facts and documenting information that at times requires an out of box thought process. Burning a candle at both ends is a definition. So other than waiting to test this cartridge on wild game I could wait for this season’s drought to bring on the culling of herds. A round bale of hay is now 3 times normal market value. Current price is $120.00 per round bale. This happened back in 2006?? We, a group of individuals that talked smart and sometimes acted smart, harvested buffalo from local ranchers that could not carry the burden of cost to feed their herd. We shot them on site. Not certain if a rancher would allow a long distance shot though. That may require a degree of social engineering. I still have Z-Max cartridges and the accuracy is not on par with the Berger. Nathan is a unique individual that tested load development and bullets on game enabling the writing of great reference material. In testing products errors occur. There are no guarantees. So if I’m fortunate to have an ungulate cross my field of vision as I lay under cover of brush this cartridge will be evaluated. Thanks for your feedback! Warwick: Always a thought process to interpret your quotes. Honour of fulfillment is an individual achievement as I have experienced life. |
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@ 04:20 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsFrank - I don’t think anybody is condemning your choice or questioning your ethics. We’re all here to learn and help each other out. Obviously, accuracy is paramount at 600 yards, so I respect your decision. But bear in mind that the “Hybrid” in “Hybrid Hunter” means a combination of tangent and secant ogives. Berger came up with it to make the bullet less sensitive to jump distance than the VLD’s pure secant ogive, which was designed to maximize BC. Hunting (i.e., terminal performance) was not their goal. Their goal was selling bullets with a snazzy name to Federal. If you look at the photo on page 60 of Nathan’s book, you can see the problem. The Berger jacket , 3rd from right, is drawn to a point. There’s no meplat to initiate expansion. The jacket is thicker at the tip. You just have to hope it breaks off at the ogive exposing some lead. The bullet is a prime candidate for annealing, or even better, filing the tip off. If you were to test it from a 308 on bison at 600 yards, I would not question you ethics - but I would question your sanity! |
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@ 07:13 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsGood point about the bullet design soooooo I will pull one and cut along the length. No meplat but an opening does exist with the suggestion from Nathan to increase the diameter. Appreciate constructive feedback. Trolls primarily exist on Facebook and those could be algorithms to encourage the mentality of the weak.For the record. No bison to be shot at 600 yards. Good closing statements. Cheers! |
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@ 11:28 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 Yardshttps://imgur.com/Ilos30a[/img] |
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@ 04:03 pm (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsTo the heart of the matter:Hollow point bullets rule the accuracy world today!! Don't believe this statement? Go scrape the internet! Additionally: After sectioning the 168gr Burger Hybrid Hunter bullet there is a science backing the function of these bullets. Not just a snazzy name to sell to Federal. If corporations actually operated in such an erratic method we would label them GOVERNMENT. Unable to provide a public link to my Hi resolution photos of the sections. The jacket itself resembles the A MAX. What is behind the tip and in front of the solid lead core is the science. Cheers! |
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@ 03:03 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Shot Placement - 400 - 600 YardsHi Frank. Thanks for posting the photo. I can see it athttps://m.imgur.com/Ilos30a |
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