@ 11:05 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayG'day all.This post will serve as bit of a journey. Part one begins here: If you search this forum you'll see my posts about the purchase, accurising, load development of my Howa 1500 in 308. Critical Details and Rifle Info The rifle is a Howa 1500 24" Heavy barrel in a Hogue stock, it is fitted with Howa's 2 stage HACT trigger. The rifle was bedded, trigger adjusted so that is snaps like glass. A load was developed using Hornady's 168gr Z-Max projectiles (Just the 168gr A-Max with a green tip). 48grs of AR2208 seated to 71mm COAL. Producing avg velocity of 2810fps, ES of 15fps This combination provided 0.3MOA groups on good days, well under 0.5 on most others. Of significant note is that this rifle does NOT pass the 1 o'clock test, however the groupings did not seem to be aware of this. Occasional bad shots would blow the group out, however I have always been convinced this is operator error, simply due to my awareness of the rifle, and my self. Note: Actions screws tensioned to 55 in/lb. Nathan: I read on here somewhere that backing off rear actions screw can overcome failure of 1 o'clock test. Can you confirm this or speak to the effects of "work around"? Substance of present issue: 12 months ago I drilled a fallow deer square in the face from about 200m. A friend followed a shot (on a rock), dead on target, immediately after. Rifle shooting very well. I was low on ammo and decided to reload again. I did up approx 60 rounds. I have taken taken some game at close range (within 150m) with this ammo and all have dropped instantly. No cause for suspicion. I shot at some paper (range was 140m) and was horrified to find that my groups were about 3.5-4MOA, all over the place. I shot the last 5 rounds of my previous batch of ammo; this group was strung out horizontally however it was gusty winds and the ammo was now 4 years old. Over all the spread was right on 1MOA. Fortunately I had my chronograph handy and measured the velocities over 10 rounds from the newer batch. Velocities in fps below: 1 - 2797 2 - 2820 3 - 2792 4 - 2809 5 - 2785 6 - 2781 7 - 2860 8 - 2871 9 - 2854 10 - 2869 ES is 90fps Note: The newer batch of ammo was made up using digital scales, the previous was measured using Lee balance scales. No significant pressure signs on any cases. Some flattening of primers but edges still rounded, no cratering. This leaves us some courses of action to return the rifle to its proper form. 1. Pull ammo and redo at calibrated/correct powder charge. - Most likely fix and easiest. 2. Redo load development - start at 45grs and work up at 0.5gr intervals, fine tune once sweet spot is located. Possibly a solution due to age between batches of powder. May find a "different sweet spot" at another charge level 3. Redo bedding - Will fix 1 O'clock test failure, if I do it right, significant effort however Stay tuned as I work through the details. And please feel free to comment! Add your thoughts! |
@ 09:05 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500By way of quick update:I remove the barreled action from the stock, I gave the underside a clean and a light coat of CRC Long Life, oiled the trigger and cleaned the bedding within the stock. I noticed some areas that were not properly relieved. I sanded these flat and flush with the other surfaces. They were the area where the barrel joins the action, and the side walls of the recoil lug. I re-assembled and the rifle now does not show visible movement during the 1 o'clock test. It has only the slightest movement detectable by touch only; the stock seems to "tense up", but does not appear to move. A very simple fix. Test image below, unrelated to the process: |
@ 09:24 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Relief given along red lines. Within the red box you may a small edge/overhang this was present also on the other side. All surfaces are now flush. |
@ 07:42 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Hi Andrew, backing off that screw is a bit of a cop out. If the rifle is stress free and has pillars as yours does, even tension will produce the most uniform results providing there is no stress within the system (no bedding issues).It can sometimes pay to utilize less force if dealing with a narrow tang, simply because the small surface area can stress the stock (without pillars). This should also be considered if dealing with smaller tang screws. Basic common sense stuff. In any case, you have done your checks, everything seems in order. Yes, look to the loads, older ammo can sometimes go this way. Start fresh and see how you get on. |
@ 09:14 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Cheers Nathan,I had assumed as much, if such a simple fix could have been effective I'm sure it would be quite a bit more known. The rifle is now on a much more even platform. As way of a journey, back in 2017 when I purchased the rifle I was a significantly different person than today. I am not surprised I did not finish it properly. I was too focused on the destination and tried to shortcut my way there. Not entirely intentionally, but hindsight is a wonderful tool. I won't bore you with the details, but I have been on a significant journey of self-reflection and growth. For those reading, if you're on a journey building/bedding a rifle platform. My advice is be kind to yourself, be honest with yourself. If you're happy with the results you've got, be happy with it, know the limits of the platform/load and operate in those boundaries. That is not to dampen any efforts at self-improvements, quite the opposite. Pay good mind to the things you can control, this includes the finish, your shooting form, your ammo selection. Accept with grace and kindness the things you cannot, this could be a physical disability or the limitations of equipment due to availability/budget; even time given your family situation. Nonetheless, if you're at all like me, sometimes taking a shortcut can be more like a going the long way round. I'm grateful for learning, and little more kind to myself these days. Stay tuned for load dev and reports. |
@ 10:38 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Stick with your process Andrew and follow the basic checks, step by step.I have said it here before and you may recall, be very wary of digital scales they are not all good. Repeatability and accuracy a big concern with many cheaper digital units and yes l found out the hard way with multiple units/brands. Now only using trued balance beam scales for final weights. This may not be your problem though a good starting point for investigation. |
@ 11:40 pm (GMT) |
David LandwehrRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Im also not a fan of electronic scales. Too many things to make them go astray.I'm keen to hear how your load development goes Andrew. Please keep us informed. |
@ 08:54 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Ok,Loads done for preliminary testing. 5x all charges for accuracy node. AR2208 in fireformed Winchester brass with Magtech primers, 71mm COAL 168gr Z-Max (A-Max) projectiles. 45 45.5 46 46.5 47 47.5 48 Will work down to 0.1gr loads once a sweet spot is identified. Or if accuracy is acceptable I may stay at a half grain node. On another note, I tested the sensitivity of the Lee Balance Scales, I found that a shift of 0.05 grain produced about a 2-3mm-movement in the beam. |
@ 11:43 pm (GMT) |
David LandwehrRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Andrew,The best group I ever shot was loaded on a Lee beam scale. Sadly maybe, I used to get annoyed with how long it takes to settle so I now run a rcbs scale. My thinking with beam scales is they are repeatable but not necessarily precise. If I throw a charge, weigh it, tip it in a container and the tip back into the scale pan, it always reads the same charge. If that charge is 0.5 or even 2 grain off if weighed on a really good calibrated lab scale, it doesn't matter because it is repeatable. And the load development goes back to a known charge weighed on your repeatable scale, precise or not. Electronic scales drift with temperature and other influences. They are not as repeatable as gravity which your beam scale relies upon. I hope you get your howa back on track. |
@ 03:25 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500OK so results from each load:All bad. Conditions were perfect, rifle was shot from prone position due to lack of bench, note that extensive rests were utilised. The best grouping was at 45gr. This may suggest a number of things: 1. I ruined the bedding entirely. 2. Accuracy sweet spot is lower than first expected. From here: I will purchase some factory ammo which has given great results in the past and test shoot this. I will attempt to bring a bench, however I have shot very well from prone in the past and do not think this was a major factor in accuracy. If the factory ammo gives good results, I'll work up loads from 42gr to 44.5gr and see what shakes out. Failing that, I'll re-do the bedding. |
@ 03:52 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500For info:Images attached with shot numbers and overall group size in MOA 45gr 45.5 46 46.5 47 47.5 48 For reference: Previous group with Factory Ammo: Previous 46.5 gr Charge with same projectile, powder, primer and case Note that distance is in mm, roughly 0.6 MOA |
@ 10:22 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500A video shooting the 45.5gr loadIf interested... https://youtu.be/i653hCjkJNo |
@ 06:47 pm (GMT) |
VinceRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Hi Andrew,You didn't say but assuming you used the balance scales for the new load testing? You also didn't say if you speed tested the new rounds, would be interesting to know what the ES was. Take this with a grain of salt as I'm still very much in the learning phase but if the ES is back down with your're previously accurate load but the grouping is still poor then bedding is the likely culprit. The only other thing I can think of if the speeds are consistent, is there any chance you have inadvertently damaged the crown? I had a friend with a Howa in 7mm RM who wanted a muzzle brake so he had the barrel threaded (and slightly shortened) by a gunsmith. It started shooting 1.5-2.5 moa groups, after eliminating everything else he had it re-crowned by another gunsmith and it went straight down to .75 moa. I would also say definitely go with a bench and sandbags for load testing if you can, your form looked enviably consistent on the video but you are breaking and re-setting pose after every shot. Good luck and looking forward to the next update Cheers Vince |
@ 09:09 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500G'day Vince,Yes, Lee Balance beam used for loads. I have a MagnetoSpeed Chronograph, a great piece of kit, however it's chief downfall is that you cannot use it to measure accuracy and speed at the same time due to it being barrel mounted. The crown does not appear to have any obvious signs of damage. I went and bought some factory ammo (Winchester PowerPoint 150gr) which if nothing else gives me extra brass. I also did up loads from 42gr to 44.5gr in 0.5 increments. I went and purchased a table and chair to use as a bench too. If these fail to produce acceptable results (in my mind less than 1 MOA) I'll re-do the bedding job. |
@ 07:46 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Hi Andrew, it might pay to keep what Vince said in mind, even if the muzzle seems to look OK. I know that this is the sort of thing one would prefer to not have to deal with because its not something that can be as easily addressed as altering loads or redoing bedding. The inclination is to put this in the too hard basket.If you want to try rebedding thats fine but if it doesn't shoot well, then you may have to look to the muzzle. If you do have to address the muzzle, as Vince pointed out, be mindful of potentially rough workmanship. The job is best done by a smith with appropriate tooling (piloted bushings etc) to jig the barrel carefully so that everything is set up squarely. The barrel needs to be set up so that the muzzle is cut square to the bore rather than square to the outer barrel. Ideally, it would be nice if you could find a smith who has the Manson Crowning tool kit which makes recrowning very easy and does away with the need for a lathe (lathe is more easily used when the barrel is off the action). If you need to address this but cannot find a gunsmith and must instead utilize a regular machine shop, they will have no choice but to reface the muzzle using the outer barrel as a reference point for concentricity. In these instances, its best to just ask them to set the barreled action up in a four jaw chuck and cut a step typed recess, possibly with no chamfer at the muzzle. Following this, you'll just have to hope that it has been cut square (enough) to the bore. |
@ 02:40 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500It is true that gunsmiths are hard to find here in Aus. I will keep this in mind if the grpups do not come back downHaving said that I measured the better groups and got a load, the 44.5gr one, with 5 shots in 23mm, at the range of 125yd this translates to approx 0.7MOA. The 43.5gr load showed some promise too. The factory Ammo shot the worst sadly, but still acceptable for use within 200m on 4-5" vital zones. I would like to revisit the 46.5gr load shooting off my "bench". Which was just a camp chair and a collapsible table utilising my pack and sand bags. My goal will be to get below 0.5MOA. I'll get some photos in the next few days. There is proof above that the rifle is capable of better accuracy. I also note that there may have been some skill fade on my part, that said I was aware when I had bad shots, knowing (roughly) where the POI was going to be on these shots. Coming back under sub-MOA is good. I do wonder if getting back up to 47-48 will prove effective? I do note that the bedding has been altered somewhat, but I think the "bench" is not a small factor in reducing variables, most notably the fatigue factor. |
@ 09:08 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500*Note the flier in this shot was a flinch* On a completely different note, I've load some 7mm-08 brass I sized up with 150gr Speer SPBT projectiles to fireform the cases. I had been wantin to develop a dual-load for scrub and open shooting. I've sat it under 44.5 grains of AR2206H which is about halfway for book recommendations. My intent is using this either at a bench or very close range where velocity should be very high still and cause significant damage. |
@ 02:05 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Hi Andrew. Are you using the Sightron SIII LRMD/CM 6-24x50 with the purple fringing you spoke about elsewhere? What reticle? What power is it set at for your test groups? |
@ 03:36 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Hey Scott,Yes same scope. Using the mil-dot reticle and when sighting/bench shooting I use it at 24x. Makes it very easy to notice your heart beat, mine tends to kick the rifle to the right 😂 |
@ 12:37 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500So a few thoughts Andrew that may or may not help, just thoughts!The Buffalo River will have lowered the recoil impulse acting on technique, harmonics (including action torque) & bedding. 135gr V 168gr and most likely a fairly soft powder charge as well. Have been dealt this lesson twice before with rifles failing 1 o'clock test. One with piss poor bedding (by me whilst learning my technique) & the second collapsed one end of two point bedding over time. Done with an inferior bedding product of unknown age. Yes it seems to have a shelf life. Brass age of reloads, varying neck tensions. I don't use 2208 in 308w anymore so this is just another observation. Sticking with 2206H (versatility across multiple loads & calibres) and little effect with ambient temps etc. Have noticed is slight change in some known loads (not all) with the latest version of ADI powders. Coinciding with the chemical make up of the powder being changed a couple of years back. Along with a lot more heavy black powder fouling instead of the original nice light grey. Just ramblings over a cup of coffee! Marty |
@ 12:41 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Oh & I do know a fella in OZ with one of the mentioned crowning kits that could help out if needed! :) |
@ 02:18 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Marty!Cheers mate, I have knocked up a few test rounds with 06H. It is an older batch of powder though. 3x 42.5 3x 43.5 3x 44 I also will revisit the higher loads in 2208 and will utilise my rudimentary bench this time 3x 46.5 3x 47.5 Sadly I found some rust hiding under the sun shade of the scope. What is most sad is that it looks like it may have been treated before, there appears to be some difference in the bluing around the spot it appeared. It's very far down the barrel, and very minimal, surface only it would appear. I'll post some photos soon but I do wonder if this has had some effect, or if it points to a more hidden problem with the barrel. I'd love your contact here if you wouldn't mind sharing, you can send it to my email andrewglenmurray at gmail.com (spaces added so web bots don't send me spam). It's a good journey, it's keeping me busy which at this point in my life is actually very beneficial after an "annus horribilis" of 2022. |
@ 03:25 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Will Do! |
@ 09:41 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Rust on barrelYou can see the area around the rust appears to have a different finish to the rest of the barrel. I'm not sure what this means, but I will go over the entire thing with a fine tooth comb. I'm looking at bore scope options at this time also to inspect the internal bore. |
@ 07:51 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500This is 47.5gr AR2208 of the pack. It is 0.45 MOA. Conditions were awful, quite windy to the point the target was blowing around also, so I'd like to revisit before getting too excited. 5 Shots off the "bench" next time in better conditions. Having gone from 4 MOA to 0.4 MOA is a massive improvement, now just to repeat it. The above group was from a second hand Tikka T3 in 30-06 my friend had bought. We were sighting it it in for rudimentary accuracy. A nice sub-MOA group with factory ammo |
@ 09:56 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Troubleshooting Howa 1500Did me email get through to you Andrew? |