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> Load Development (help me please)
Load Development (help me please)
@ 05:38 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyHi GuysI went to the range today to test my first loads. I couldn't find a sweet spot or even get close. Best group was 25mm/1". It was a very hot day 31 degrees. I was shooting for about five hours and the last few groups the barrel was getting hot. The first few shots the rifle hit me hard as I was holding it to tight, once I relaxed a bit the recoil disappeared was pleasant to shoot. The bullets were seated .3mm sst off the lands and .5mm speers. Below are the target pics. Any way does any one have any ideas for me to try to reduce the group sizes. URL=http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/landrover11/media/20150305_172912.jpg.html]  [/url]
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Replies
@ 05:50 am (GMT) |
chris murphyRe: Load Development (help me please)Hi Ben if you like come round and I'll help you nut it out.You can call or txt 0278258430 |
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@ 07:19 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Quote: Hi Ben if you like come round and I'll help you nut it out.
You can call or txt 0278258430 Thanks Chris, I'll catch up over the weekend. |
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@ 07:34 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Bit more info:25 05 Rem 26" Barrel 9.5 twist 57.5 gr AR2217 = 3164 fps ave 59 gr AR2217 = 3191 fps ave 59.5 gr AR2217 = 3262 fps ave Most groups 3 shots spread 20-40fps Best was 10fps spread. 303-25 Lee Enfield no4mk1 100gr Prohunters 36.6gr AR2208 3143 fps ave These loads may be unsafe in your rifle, so start lower as per reloading books.[b] |
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@ 05:53 pm (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Thanks Nathan, I will catch up with Chris and see what he thinks my next step should be.It seems odd that the groups stayed similar will all loads 1-2" ( ave 1.5" )at 112 yards. (best was 1") I would have expected to see a bit more movement in group sizes. I think my loads were consistent and the spread wasn't too wide 10fps-40fps The velocities were very high for a 25 06. Maybe I need to slow them down a bit? I could also try 100gr projectiles and see how they go. The trigger may have been a bit heavy as I had to pull out of shots as it was taking too long to squeeze off. It is a Timney so I can adjust it. I shot off a sand bag on a table with my hand on the top of the scope (no where else to hold it). The first shots were thumping me hard so had to change technique. I'm thinking seating the projectiles deeper to see what happens or try another type of projectile. I used 117gr SST and 120gr Speer. The 1" group was with the Speer. Maybe the barrel is still breaking in, that's 30 shots through it total. cheers Ben |
@ 11:05 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Load Development (help me please)I would have to do this by phone Ben. Too much to cover here. Also why I wrote the book series and set by steps. Just too many variables and unknowns when posting- too much for me to cover.Have a catch up with Chris and or call me at some stage. I am about a day behind here but can fit in a call at some stage (not evening sorry). |
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@ 01:34 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Also from memory and one of the targets I wrote on, it seemed to be the third shot that ruined the groups. I was thinking after the first two shots that this looked real good then stuffed it with the third. Maybe the barrel was heating up or a fowling issue. I did clean the barrel twice during 20 shots, say after 6 and 12ish. I let the barrel cool between groups of three (not each shot). |
@ 08:38 am (GMT) |
Andy StewartRe: Load Development (help me please)Ben,First choose the projectile you would like to be your no1 go to, in this case the SST will be better all rounder than the Speer, you get your number 1 pick working the way you want, then experiment with the rest. Load 20 rounds (or more) 117SST to just touch (or max mag length if shorter), all your rounds the same powder and weight, in a long barrel 2506 typically ADI2217 at the heavier projectile end and ADI2209 for the lighter end, at max ADI book loads is a good place to start. Take your press to the range with your seating die set, (bolt it to a bit of 2x4 if you have to) I have a cheap press mounted on a portable frame for exactly that purpose, shoot 3 rounds noting exactly your hold and shooting process (am assuming for this exercise sighting at 110yds already sorted). If the load doesn't do what you want, tale 10 thou off the next three rounds and shoot again, replicating your shooting process again, if it shows promise, test again and confirm, if not, take another ten thou off the next three, replicate your shooting process again, ect, ect, until you find a seating depth that works, then with your next batch of the same load start fine tuning depth. If that method doesn't at least get you close, switch to the number two projectile choice and start again. Using this method, I had the 115 Berger VLD shooting 1/2" in 12 rounds in my recent 2506 build (and the Sierra ProHunter at 1/2"-5/8" in not many more), you have my email, drop me a line if you continue to have dramas with it, as a convicted .25 fan I'll help if I can, on a more practical level, keep me posted. Andy. |
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@ 05:37 pm (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Hi Guys, a quick update if you have been following this post.Chris Murphy from this forum contacted me as he has played with a couple of 25 06 rifles developing loads. He lives just the corner from me so I shot round to see him. He tested the concentricity of my fired cases and my re loads. They are both really good, so no problems there. There were a couple of bedding points that I am going to release that may be slightly pinching (on the side of the action above the trigger, also the bottom of the recoil lug was just touching in one spot). But the main issue was some tooling marks about 15mm in from the end of the muzzle. I took it round to my gunsmith who put the barrel on and we put a bore scope down it (which we had done before but not right at the muzzle). The rest of the barrel looked real good, No chatter marks etc but at the muzzle were the tool marks, like a tool had gone inside the muzzle while lapping or rifling the barrel? And there were scratches/tool marks across one of the lands at the same place as the tool marks. This may be half my problem, so I am going to dock the barrel up to 1" shorter to remove any marks and then re crown it. My barrel will still be 25" long minimum, so not to much of an issue. Chris also uses 2217 but with magnum primers so either primer should be o.k. Because these tool marks were the last thing the bullet touches before leaving the muzzle, I reckon this could be a major problem with my accuracy. Just have to wait for my gunsmith to fix the break on his lathe and get the work done (hopefully later in the week). Then back to the range. Thanks Chris and Andy for all your help. |
@ 01:26 am (GMT) |
G DogRe: Load Development (help me please)Good to see some progress Ben. Who are you using locally? Jim? Cheers, Grant |
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@ 03:31 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Quote: Good to see some progress Ben. Who are you using locally? Jim? Cheers, Grant
Yeah Grant, Jim lives 150m from me. Bloody handy to have a gunsmith so close. |
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@ 04:58 am (GMT) |
G DogRe: Load Development (help me please)Cool - very handy having him just down the road. Ive just dropped my old brno 6mm rem of to him to whack an inch off and to bed. He's a pretty good rooster to have a yarn with. |
@ 11:58 pm (GMT) |
Shawn BevinsRe: Load Development (help me please)Glad this worked out for you.. Thats what this forum is about..[b] |
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@ 08:19 pm (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)O.K I have my rifle back now, although with a slightly shorter barrel.My gunsmith docked an inch off the end to remove the tool marks and the scratched land just at the muzzle of the barrel. It is still 25" which is optimum for the 25 06. I have also scored a Lee Press for $49.00 from re-loaders supplies, that I will mount on a small timber frame as per a pic Andy sent me. Then I can load say 21 rounds identical at .25mm off the lands all with the same powder load. Then I can decrease each three shot group of loads OAL by .25mm and see what difference it makes. Hopefully I will see group sizes shrink when I find the OAl the rifle likes with a certain projectile. I will try my 117gr SST again as I have the old targets and data saved to compare if removing the rough inch of muzzle has helped. I will also load some 117gr prohunters and do the same process if required. Chris said my loaded bullet concentricity run out was at the high end of acceptable tolerance so I will seat the bullets with two stages turning 180degrees and see if this reduces the run out further. I gave the barrel a good clean with a white poly pad on a worn brush for the first time and it seemed to work well. (normally use a rag on worn brush) Does the newly reamed throat need to be lapped with a maroon poly pad as my gunsmith has not done this. The bore was lapped, then my gun smith reamed it in 25 06. Do I do lap the throat before trying any more shots or do I shoot it first and see? cheers Ben |
@ 12:41 am (GMT) |
Jim MoseleyRe: Load Development (help me please)My cousin's rifle was shooting that same triangular pattern in his 7 mag. He changed from a 215m primer to a 210 primer and that solved the problem. Minor adjustment in powder charge. |
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@ 08:39 pm (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Back to the range with the tooling marks docked from the muzzle of my barrel.
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@ 08:52 pm (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)So as you can see from the groups things are looking better. The federal factory loads shot really well at (2909 fps ave). All my other loads were 117 gr Prohunters (3254 fps ave) 58.5gr AR2217, Federal 215m primers and seated .25mm off the lands. I had left my shell holder at home so I could not play with the seating depth (the reason I went to the range, bugger it). The Federal Factory ammo is seated a lot deeper so I will try that depth next time and see what happens. I moved the point of impact around to get it about 2 1/2 inches high at 115 yards. (115 yards because that is just what the range is). So I can use it for hunting if required. |
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@ 09:10 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Load Development (help me please)Very good, looks like it is all coming together.Having a 117gr bullet going 3254fps is cause for concern. I would have preferred that you work up loads first, then experiment with seating depths after choosing the most accurate load. They way you have gone about it is not ideal and could have proven dangerous. |
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@ 09:35 pm (GMT) |
Jim MoseleyRe: Load Development (help me please)I agree with Nathan. I think you're cooking your loads. Just for the sake of curiosity, why not pull the bullet from one of your factory loads and weigh the powder charge. You have four bullets touching each other at 2900 fps, I'd say you are very close to the accuracy load at that charge. Federal is probably using a proprietary powder but you at least have a starting point with the powder you are using. Look it up in the book for 2900 fps and work your way up. Good luck! |
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@ 02:03 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Quote: Very good, looks like it is all coming together.
Having a 117gr bullet going 3254fps is cause for concern. I would have preferred that you work up loads first, then experiment with seating depths after choosing the most accurate load. They way you have gone about it is not ideal and could have proven dangerous. Thanks Nathan, I had already worked my way up to max pressure 59.5gr 2217 when testing with the new barrel. So I actually dropped it back to 58.5 gr 2217 which is the book max and showed no signs of pressure problems that I can see. Primers look fine and no sticky bolt lift. Another member mentioned to me to sort out seating depth first, then fine tune the powder charges. If there are no pressure signs that I can see, do I need to back off? It is shooting from a 25" barrel. These primers look ok to me but I'm no expert and don't want an accident, what's your take on them. 
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@ 04:28 am (GMT) |
chris murphyRe: Load Development (help me please)Hi Ben I would recommend starting load development again as the first was invalid due to the barrel. Just do what you did first time going up in .5grn increments and now that the rifle is showing sign of good accuracy you will find a sweet spot that way and it's a lot safer |
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@ 05:38 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)This is from the ADI manual with a 24" barrel.117 GR. HDY SPBT AR2217 0.257" 3.165" 55.0 2936 47200 cup 58.5 C 3046 51000 cup Note my barrel is 25" These were 58.5gr AR2217 max The ave for all 11 shots fired from all groups was 3205 fps. Each three shot group was identical load etc 1/ 3229, 3254 and 3250 ave 3244 fps 2/ 3232, 3165 and error 3/ 3188, 3217and 3183 ave 3196 fps 4/ 3199, 3191 and 3149 ave 3179 fps Total ave 3205 fps Is this worrying velocity or good velocity? |
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@ 06:11 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Load Development (help me please)Thanks for getting back to me Ben, this one has had me worried. 3200fps and above is not normal for .25-06 rifles. I have been up to 3300fps myself and the pressures are very dangerous.But your brass really does look fine. The primers are a bit wider but still no major. Will be interesting to see how fresh primers go when seated. Backing off seating depths is much like load work in reverse. The pressure drops and velocity is altered as you back off the lands. I still want to see you work through and around the 3000fps mark. Just keep a close eye on it all Ben. Lets say your rifle is a fast rifle, you are still around 100fps faster than a fast rifle. This may prove fine in this instance but I want to see you play it real safe. I am out for dinner at the moment, don't have my load notes and past optimal seating depths handy. OK, better sign off and do the dinner thing. Just wanted to make sure you are safe. |
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@ 09:13 pm (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Hi Nathan. Again thanks for your input. Just to make sure I am correct in interpreting your last reply. If I seat the bullets deeper : the pressure drops and the velocities will change. At the moment I am .25mm off the lands at 79.20mm, the Federal Factory OAL is 77.95mm. So I was thinking of reducing the seating depth in increments of .25mm until I get to the factory depth. Now the rifle is shooting an inch or under I am thinking the seating depth may tighten the groups yet. And as long as the pressure drops as I seat deeper, then this should be safe. Is this o.k to try?I am using AR2217 which seems to have the highest velocities for the 117gr projectiles in the ADI book. I also had the twist rate in the barrel made at a faster twist than the standard of 10" twist to 9.5" twist (Maybe this is helping with velocity?) What are your findings on a faster twist barrel velocity wise? Once a seating depth is found that suits your projectile, does altering the powder charge change it? I certainly won't go any higher in powder charge. cheers Ben |
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@ 03:53 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Load Development (help me please)My findings for faster twists, are that sometimes, the faster we go, the more we can run into fliers (depending on the cartridge). If we want to drive a projectile extremely fast, we have to step back in twist rate as the extra velocity will give high RPM anyway. This is why the WBY cartridges were / are often slightly slower in twist than standard cartridges.A lot of "experts" get caught out with twist. The basic thinking- "the faster the better" can sometimes be incorrect. Nevertheless, in this instance, your barrel is only a .5 faster than usual. Yes, for the most part, as you seat deeper, pressures drop. If you see velocities come up, it will be relative to copper fouling or heat build up. Again, changing seating depth is like incremental powder charge load development because you are changing velocities. But in this instance, you are working backwards. I have explained my methods and reasons in the reloading book. The path you chose is a bit different but has some merit, providing the start powder charge is not too high. OK, an example from my personal notes, 24' barrel. 58gr 2217 behind the 117gr SST yields 3090fps. Max COAL 80.9mm. Your rifle throat seems somewhat shorter, hence some of the extra velocity. Best accuracy close to the lands as you have done. Again, if you want to see my load work methods, these are in the latest book. Or continue on your path. Its entirely up to you. Each to his own. My main concern is safety. Being right or wrong about methods to obtain accuracy is far less important. |
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@ 05:52 am (GMT) |
Ben GradyRe: Load Development (help me please)Hi NathanI did follow your book procedures with my first SST load development and primers were flattening at 59.5gr 2217 so I backed off 1 grain. My SST 117gr load is 80.83 OAL .25mm off the lands, so similar to yours. And my SST velocity is 3122 fps ave from 25" barrel. For some reason the prohunters are 100 fps faster with the same powder load. I guess I have two options. 1/ Start again with reduced loads are work up, then sort out seating depth. 2/ Continue seating deeper with the loads I have and see what happens. I agree with you that safety is the main concern. So starting again may be the best option. Starting book load is 55gr AR2217 2935fps (probably faster in my rifle) So do I go 55gr, 55.5, 56, 56.5, 57, 57.5 and 58gr. I already have 58.5gr. Do I need to start at the lowest load or start mid way? Say 56.5gr? And see what happens. Do I seat the pro hunters deeper than .25mm off the lands (say 79mm ) or leave it at 79.20mm OAL for a start. What would you do? at this stage, I will follow your recommendation. Thanks again for the guidance, Ben |
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