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Troubleshooting Howa 1500

08 May 2023
@ 11:05 am (GMT)

Andrew Murray

G'day all.

This post will serve as bit of a journey. Part one begins here:

If you search this forum you'll see my posts about the purchase, accurising, load development of my Howa 1500 in 308.

Critical Details and Rifle Info
The rifle is a Howa 1500 24" Heavy barrel in a Hogue stock, it is fitted with Howa's 2 stage HACT trigger.
The rifle was bedded, trigger adjusted so that is snaps like glass.
A load was developed using Hornady's 168gr Z-Max projectiles (Just the 168gr A-Max with a green tip). 48grs of AR2208 seated to 71mm COAL. Producing avg velocity of 2810fps, ES of 15fps

This combination provided 0.3MOA groups on good days, well under 0.5 on most others.

Of significant note is that this rifle does NOT pass the 1 o'clock test, however the groupings did not seem to be aware of this. Occasional bad shots would blow the group out, however I have always been convinced this is operator error, simply due to my awareness of the rifle, and my self.
Note: Actions screws tensioned to 55 in/lb.

Nathan: I read on here somewhere that backing off rear actions screw can overcome failure of 1 o'clock test. Can you confirm this or speak to the effects of "work around"?

Substance of present issue:
12 months ago I drilled a fallow deer square in the face from about 200m. A friend followed a shot (on a rock), dead on target, immediately after. Rifle shooting very well. I was low on ammo and decided to reload again.

I did up approx 60 rounds. I have taken taken some game at close range (within 150m) with this ammo and all have dropped instantly. No cause for suspicion.

I shot at some paper (range was 140m) and was horrified to find that my groups were about 3.5-4MOA, all over the place. I shot the last 5 rounds of my previous batch of ammo; this group was strung out horizontally however it was gusty winds and the ammo was now 4 years old. Over all the spread was right on 1MOA.

Fortunately I had my chronograph handy and measured the velocities over 10 rounds from the newer batch. Velocities in fps below:
1 - 2797
2 - 2820
3 - 2792
4 - 2809
5 - 2785
6 - 2781
7 - 2860
8 - 2871
9 - 2854
10 - 2869
ES is 90fps

Note: The newer batch of ammo was made up using digital scales, the previous was measured using Lee balance scales. No significant pressure signs on any cases. Some flattening of primers but edges still rounded, no cratering.

This leaves us some courses of action to return the rifle to its proper form.

1. Pull ammo and redo at calibrated/correct powder charge. - Most likely fix and easiest.
2. Redo load development - start at 45grs and work up at 0.5gr intervals, fine tune once sweet spot is located. Possibly a solution due to age between batches of powder. May find a "different sweet spot" at another charge level
3. Redo bedding - Will fix 1 O'clock test failure, if I do it right, significant effort however

Stay tuned as I work through the details. And please feel free to comment! Add your thoughts!


Replies

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21 Jun 2023
@ 11:41 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Intermediate reply for those following along at home.

Thank you kindly for the views on the Youtube Video also; it truly is a boring video.

Below group is test from AR2206H charge at 43.5gr, 71mm COAL with 168gr Amax.

You will notice the first shot is way off... I believe the stock was touching the barrel due to heat, from the barrel itself but also solar radiation, the sun is quite strong in Aus (and NZ too). I noticed it appeared in contact with the barrel after this shot and let it cool for a good while before firing again, ensuring there was no contact. I've never noticed this before, somewhat concerning, but to correct I'll simply shave off some material inside the stock. It was contacting right at the very end of the stock where it has the most play.

Overall size is listed and at the distance of approx 110yd represents: 0.32MOA



Below is the grouping from 47.5gr of AR2208

I believe the first 2 shots were foulers given the considerable clean I gave the bore. That said it warrants testing again. A properly fouled bore and slowing down so I don't pull my shots means the quality of the data is better.

Shots 3,4,5 are almost in the same hole. Shot 6 was pulled, and I knew it as soon as it was fired that it was going left. It ruined my group but I don't feel awful about it because I was able to call it, knowing full well where it was going to land.

Group is sub-calibre which is always excellent: Overall it is 0.25MOA (3 shots). With the last shot the group size is 0.8MOA.





From here, I'll do up further loads again, confirm groups, then test for speed.
22 Jun 2023
@ 05:10 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
well Ive kept out of this one up till now..but your last few posts have raised a few flags,I believe its remiss not to point them out.
first up...that hogue stock has a little bit of rubber right at the very tip all of about 2mm wide and THAT IS the only bit of stock that will contact barrel..so cut the plurry thing off!!!!! I did it in 15 seconds with sharp pocket knife... use a dremil or just take your time so it doesnt look as huckery as mine did.
2nd flag......this shot was from a.... starts with F and rhymes with grinch......
the buffalo rivier is 135grn and soft load.....next to no recoil..... 165 will have a tiny bit more...and you KNOW IT..... MIGHT be an issue,might not.
simple way to find out if you get your buddy to load rifle for you and hand it to you ready to go except for safety...he loads rounds and closes bolt..not you..at some point of a shot string he slips you a micky..loads an empty case..when hammer drops and muzzle has whipped sideways or up or down as your eyes are clenched almost as hard shut as your teeth are..you will feel like a right pillick..and then HAVE to face up to the issue. that rust isnt an issue... its just what happens. you should see what a blood spot will do overnight.
your 150grn factory ammunition shot terrible..... now heres a wee titbit for you....the 150grn winchester load has MORE felt recoil than the same in 180grn..yes thats not typo..they are worlds apart and the 180 is a GREAT up close bush load. the 150s are a sharp whack Vs a push....
again that dreaded rhymes with grinch COULD be at play.[
22 Jun 2023
@ 05:11 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
well Ive kept out of this one up till now..but your last few posts have raised a few flags,I believe its remiss not to point them out.
first up...that hogue stock has a little bit of rubber right at the very tip all of about 2mm wide and THAT IS the only bit of stock that will contact barrel..so cut the plurry thing off!!!!! I did it in 15 seconds with sharp pocket knife... use a dremil or just take your time so it doesnt look as huckery as mine did.
2nd flag......this shot was from a.... starts with F and rhymes with grinch......
the buffalo rivier is 135grn and soft load.....next to no recoil..... 165 will have a tiny bit more...and you KNOW IT..... MIGHT be an issue,might not.
simple way to find out if you get your buddy to load rifle for you and hand it to you ready to go except for safety...he loads rounds and closes bolt..not you..at some point of a shot string he slips you a micky..loads an empty case..when hammer drops and muzzle has whipped sideways or up or down as your eyes are clenched almost as hard shut as your teeth are..you will feel like a right pillick..and then HAVE to face up to the issue. that rust isnt an issue... its just what happens. you should see what a blood spot will do overnight.
your 150grn factory ammunition shot terrible..... now heres a wee titbit for you....the 150grn winchester load has MORE felt recoil than the same in 180grn..yes thats not typo..they are worlds apart and the 180 is a GREAT up close bush load. the 150s are a sharp whack Vs a push....
again that dreaded rhymes with grinch COULD be at play.[
23 Jun 2023
@ 05:12 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Mike,

Cheers for jumping in. Flinch for sure. No need to dance around it. Though being aware is half the battle, I'm usually quite stable and know to pause and reset, accept that the rifle acts under recoil.

That said, the whole journey has been good. Which 180gr projectiles do you refer to? I have only ever seen the 150gr PowerPoint from Winchester.

I'd love to get some 130gr Woodleigh propetec points but I'm not sure if Woodleigh are up and running again...

I've only got 500 Z Max left too, which sounds a lot but I'll go through if I can't find a woods/Bush load. I also have 100 Gameking still in the packet, I should post a photo. I think they qualify as antiques.
24 Jun 2023
@ 10:43 am (GMT)

Ben Law

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Andrew, try this.
https://samhuntvic.com.au/product/woodleigh-products/
24 Jun 2023
@ 08:19 pm (GMT)

Mike Davis

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
sorry about double post..had real issue with the anti spam thing.
yes that is a powerpoint 180grn from winchester the same as the 150s,same packaging etc.its mentioned in knowledge base.I couldnt find projectiles as component so went wit hhornady 180grn round nose with similar terminal effect,soft and expandy
25 Jun 2023
@ 01:42 am (GMT)

David Landwehr

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Ben and Andtew and Co. I can vouch for Samhunt, he has been awesome to deal with. A real gentleman, well priced and efficient. He remembers my requests long after I've forgotten and he replies when it's in stock. He secured some 300gn RNSN heavy duty woodleighs for me for my buffalo hunt from undamaged stock from the woodleigh fire. What a guy.
But at the moment I don't believe he has woodleighs, apart from hydros in stock keep in touch with him and he will get back to you when it's in stock. A great guy.
Andrew, an interesting thing. I'm currently shooting 150's in my 308 very well. .3 MOA well. Heavier pills, not so well. I'm getting sub moa with 155's, 165's and 168's, but when I'm drilling 150's into a clover leaf , it's hard to look past them. I don't think I'm fliching but maybe I need someone to video me. Goodluck with working through it. You'll come out the other side.
25 Jun 2023
@ 02:30 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Hey David and Ben,

I'll keep in touch with them. I had some factory ammo with Woodleigh 130gr PP in them and they were great, devastating performance.

Mike - I have not seen these, perhaps they aren't as popular due to perceived increased recoil. We have limited gun shops where I am which doesn't help.

Here's those GameKings... If anyone can have a guess at their ago I'd be curious to know, unopened...





I'm heading out again Tuesday for accuracy/velocity on both loads.

With the velocity testing I'll strap the bayonet on and see how it affects accuracy/POI.
01 Jul 2023
@ 12:48 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Some disappointing developments:

Please see images then explainer below:







You will see that the 06H load WITH the Chrono grouped very well.

On the 06H without chrono and 08 load WITH chrono you can see double grouping. The 2 08 shots on the lower right were interestingly the highest velocity shots 2844fps (shot 3) and 2849fps (shot 5). Though this is interest only due to the action screw being incredibly loose

The 08 without the chrono is right around 1 MOA but there is no pattern (excluding the fouling shot).

What I discovered was that the front action screw was incredibly loose. I am surprised it did not fall out.

This could explain the bizarre grouping, and potentially the weight of the barrel mounted Chrono caused the 06H load to "settle" and return to battery properly.

Nonetheless:
06H load avg fps: 2730 with ES of 30 fps.
08 Load avg fps: 2835 with ES of 28 fp

I would put forward that the bedding platform actually provided the level of accuracy seen rather, that is to say without a solid bedding platform accuracy may have been well over 5 MOA given the strength of the loads.

As an aside the 3 shots to the left of the target were my Norma rounds I was fire forming.

150gr Speer BTSP projectiles and 42.5gr of AR2206H
2919fps
2888fps
2869fps
01 Jul 2023
@ 12:53 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Oh, and I dropped the rifle on the tile floor while cleaning it... on its crown... there is definitely some marking/deforming of the metal.

I'll need investigate this :(((

01 Jul 2023
@ 04:52 pm (GMT)

David Landwehr

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Andrew, very interesting as you say. Unfortunately you can't gleam much from the results until you reshoot with a tight action screw and get that crown fixed. Bummer about the crown.
Just a word of caution, your forming loads with the Norma brass at at Max load velocity in the ADI book with Winchester brass and 2208. Your pressure might already be well up there with a reduced capacity in the norma brass.
I learnt the hard way with Norma brass and a classic sako in 17 rem. I didn't work up a load but went down 1 grain from my rem brass loads. I ended up blanking a primer and damaging the bolt face because the pressure was way too high.
02 Jul 2023
@ 10:47 am (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Hi David,

Cheers for the advice. I did notice they were a little tight when camming, but nothing suggests excessive pressure after firing, primers and cases look the same as other brass. However, I will be watching closely.

The crown is a sad state of affairs for sure. I will send out some test loads. Hopefully all that has changed is point of impact; I am prepared for the worst.
03 Jul 2023
@ 11:14 am (GMT)

Martin Taylor

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
PM sent Andrew.
We can sort that crown out very quickly, no tear-down required.

You need some weak Loctite on those action screws, a low strength thread locker. Either liquid or paste with paste being my preferred in this case so it cannot migrate to unwanted places.

Its a simple preventative measure and should be done on all rifles.
09 Jul 2023
@ 06:39 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Accuracy appears unaffected, at least with 47.5 gr load. I will properly adjust the action screws once I get back from some trips for work and vacation. This will close out the matter. I will post a final summary once done.
16 Sep 2023
@ 11:15 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
OK, interim update.

I couldn't get it back in... the 1 O'clock test failure came back some how???

I've re-bed the rifle. Hopefully, fingers crossed, the job is successful and corrects the failure, removing stress from the action.

Failing this, I have a 12 gauge and can pretend I was only ever into shotgunning anyway.
17 Sep 2023
@ 10:01 am (GMT)

Ben Law

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Andrew, I know with my Howa, the trigger, when I tighten the retaining screw it fails the 1oclock test. So i only do it up finger tight and use a bit of loctite, passes the test fine then.
Strange and I've not heard anyone else ever mention it, but that's how it's been for me.
17 Sep 2023
@ 11:25 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
As Nathan said, there’s not enough solid stock material under the tang to take the same torque as the forward screw in the recoil lug, unless there’s a rear pillar. If the 1 o’clock test fails, the action has to be rocking on a high point in the bedding between the screws, or the recoil lug is bottomed out in its recess.
17 Sep 2023
@ 07:07 pm (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Hey team,

Very odd indeed.

I broke the job out today. On initial testing the 1 oclock test showed only the slightest of movement; without the trigger attached at all.

I put a slither of masking tape in the bedding channel on the forend and the test has no more fails. Like a pressure point bedding if you will.

That said there is now obviously some stress at that point.

As Scott mentioned, the physics says that there is a higher spot between the screws, I am just not sure which, nor by how much. As mentioned, it is only a slither of masking tap, not thick electrical tape that provides this "fix".

Either the area directly behind the recoil lug or the tang would be the common sense spots

I'm prepared to fire some shots with the "tape pressure point" in place and if the rifle shoots well, then I suppose the problem is overcome to some degree. Hopefully this will remove flyers and double grouping.

On Wednesday I managed to put 3 shots in one hole and 2 in the another. The fact that there were only 2 holes was good, but that they were 1" apart was not so good.

I'm out tmorrow which may provide a chance to get some preliminary data on the effectiveness of the job.

That said if anyone can offer advice on where extra relief may be needed to fix this job properly I'd be most open to it.

18 Sep 2023
@ 07:15 am (GMT)

Scott Struif

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
I assume you read the book and know that crumbs of bedding material can fall into the bottom of the recoil lug recess. It happens when you reassemble the action to the stock. The recoil lug scrapes some material which winds up under the flat bottom of the lug. That’s why it’s recommended to tape the bottom of the lug when bedding. Crumbs in the recess could cause the action to teeter-totter on the lug, particularly if the lug wasn’t taped. I would take the gun apart over a piece of paper to catch any loose bits of material, and examine the bedding in the immediate vicinity of the lug.

The other thing I wonder is whether you have enough clearance in the barrel channel to begin with. It seems like you should be able to slide at least one business card, maybe two, between the barrel and the stock. That’s why stock stabilization is recommended, too. You don’t want the stock touching the barrel when the gun goes off.

On the other hand, if a pressure point corrects the problem, you should be able to shoot 2 or 3 shots before barrel heat becomes an issue. That’s good enough for hunting purposes.
18 Sep 2023
@ 07:24 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Hi Andrew, sorry to hear that this did not turn out as expected. I am sure others who have had to perform rebeds will be feeling for you at this point.

1mm is unfortunately quite a lot. It is likely that the stock flexed during the cure. It can be very hard to prevent this, especially in the Hogue which is perhaps 50% rubber.

All parts can flex - the stock, receiver and barrel.

Best options are to either start over or find a new / better stock and start with that.

If you want to try again, try to remove more material than you did the last time around to ensure the compound has plenty of room to migrate out of the stock. You can try using a dam in the barrel channel with a second support at the forend tip to stop the barrel adding forward weight - but this can be tricky. Note that when a barrel is chucked in lathe jaws, the barrel can be bent with the pressure of just one finger pushing against the muzzle. Therefore, it can be best to use a piece of foam at the forend tip rather than a harder material. Perform lots of trial fits, working towards having the rifle set up in such a way that only one bungee is required at the bridge (area between mag and trigger well) to secure the receiver without really having to force it down. Throughout the job, try to keep in mind what I said about the barrel being bent with finger pressure. It really is that delicate.

If you try again, you could also omit the tape under the lug as the Howa has quite a large area under the lug and also has the action screw in this area. Ordinarily, a gap of a few thou is useful as a means to prevent scraped crumbs (or oils) ruining the fit as the receiver goes down into the bedding during assembly. The Howa can shoot straight with this very slight gap but with the gentle curves of the Howa, such an approach / caution is not completely necessary. Further to this, the front action screw is located under the lug. The Howa can shoot either way, with or without relief (provided the relief is small) but seeing as the screw abuts to this area and taking the gentle curvature of this item into consideration (does not generally scrape / produce crumbs), it is better to bed this area, relieving front of the lug and the sidewalls with the tape going around the curve of the sidewalls (the radiused intersection of the sides and bottom) but then cut off to expose the flat.

Make sure the holes through the pillars are drilled out and clean from compound so that fresh compound won't trap the dummy screws and can migrate down and out of the job.

Regarding replacement stocks - With the continued popularity of the Howa, importers have been bringing in various stock options such as Bell & Carlson (probably the best of the bunch). A warning however, be careful when it comes to modern technologies / innovations as they may be no better than your plastic / rubber stock. Carbon fiber for example is a 'potentially' sturdy material. But a poorly designed and constructed carbon fiber stock will flex quite badly during bedding. If you are not watching out for this, it can catch you out. Such stocks may also splay if a bridge is omitted between the mag and trigger well.
21 Sep 2023
@ 06:19 pm (GMT)

David Lenzi

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Two things of note...

1. the one instance in which a botched bedding job ruined precision for me had to do mostly with the tang; it wasn't properly referenced (height) or relieved. The rifle would routinely shoot two very tight groups... the problem being you could never be sure into which group you would be shooting.

2. the best group I've ever fired was with a Magneto Speed v3 mounted. I've used it on several heavy or medium weight barrels and have noticed no ill effects concerning precision provided one is mindful that there is a propensity of the unit to shift forward on tapered/sporter contour barrels. The MSv3 reliably shifts my groups .2 mrad high from zero across a variety of cartridges.

To the first point, I'd start with a new stock if I could manage it. To the second, I'd not fear testing for precision and speed in conjunction with an understanding that upon completion I will confirm a proper zero.
08 Oct 2023
@ 09:24 am (GMT)

Andrew Murray

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
Thanks David,

This is my experience. 2 Groups, very precise: 5 shots in 2 holes, giving the overall group about a 1 MOA spread.

At this time it is simply a 1 MOA gun.

From here: A new stock.

Given the weight a http://www.bellandcarlson.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1078]Bell & Carson 6560 would be nice.

However a Boyds Laminate may be nice, I'm not too keen on the cheek weld most Boyds seem to have though. That and the rifle is already at 5kg with the Hogue stock, a laminate platform will only add to this.

Rebedding with a new platform. I like the utility of the Hogue stock, but cannot get it right.
08 Oct 2023
@ 02:22 pm (GMT)

Ben Law

Re: Troubleshooting Howa 1500
I'd be happy with that 6560 bell and carlson stock, I also like the 2093 Target/Competition stock.
These stocks weigh about the same as a boyds laminate, all around 2.5-3lb.
Test shoot it out of the box, you may not even need to bed it.
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