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> Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith
Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith
@ 10:43 am (GMT) |
Simon CrowtherI found this video on Youtube and thought it'd make for a good discussion. I think the old boy is about right."Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith" https://youtu.be/GSRhQK9KoMY |
Replies
@ 09:53 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithSome good points. There is no substitute for power. I am having the same thing here, countless emails about the Creedmoor, guys wanting Elk loads for long range, guys having failures, guys trading in .30-06 rifles because the Creedmoor shoots flatter?, the tactical guys. Its hideous, a fashion, a fad, blown out of proportions. This cartridge cannot do any more than the Swede or .260, both modest cartridges.On the other hand, please be careful with these vids. I had an industry peer take a wrong fork in his R&D due to one of these vids. Took me a while to get him back on track again. Be aware that there are various levels / depths to learning. As we learn, we develop beliefs based on what we consider to be true and in this day and age we will now find many folk (via the internet) to support our beliefs, right or wrong. But if we are willing to continue learning, we find flaws in our own testing and thinking (see my flawed thinking - cartridges book - Taipan). So sometimes there are elements of truth but these can also give a distorted view of a subject from isolated view points without further information. It is important to ask ourselves if we are seeing a part of the whole, or whether we are seeing the sum in its entirety. Due to misinformation in some of the other videos, I do not believe this is a good subject for discussion. |
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@ 10:50 am (GMT) |
Simon CrowtherRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithFair enough.I must admit, it wasn't the whole video I was interested in, I've been wondering what this 6.5 Creedmore thing is all about. Salespeople keep trying to sell me a Creedmore and can't seem to understand why I don't want one. I take an interest in long range shooting but for now have no intention of actually doing it, I like to get a bit closer, if I move to some place where it's necessary I'll think again. |
@ 11:21 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithI haven't watched this particular video, I watched another one of his though...I don't think I will watch any more. No doubt he probably has excellent skills as a smith and probably knows more than most but as I watched I realised this man gives an air of being unwilling to learn or to question any more. Even the title "The Real Gunsmith" indicates that he believes he has arrived at a destination no one else has, or can. Whether it was his decision or someone in a marketing chair is irrelevant, he has put his name on it. Is this a harsh assessment? Yes perhaps, having never met the man, he may be a genuinely nice bloke, but in any profession if you stop learning or can no longer learn by proclaiming to be the authority then your credentials immediately fall apart. I would rather learn from someone who knows they cannot be an authority but willing to keep striving personally. It is funny how questions will have answers yet answers tends to raise questions. |
@ 05:38 am (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithI watched the video. He seems to have a point about the Creedmoor. In following Nathan's books along and allowing him to teach me I have come to at least a few conclusions that are borne out by my experience and his research. As he already said, there is no substitute for power.If one is going to go to the trouble and time to learn to shoot ethically at long range, then why not also go to the trouble and time of learning to shoot a powerful rifle? All one needs to get started is a non-magnum in 308, or 30-06. Then stepping up to a magnum like the 7 mm Remington or the 7 Practical. Science and ballistics aside there's just something about pulling the trigger of a big magnum and seeing what that properly selected bullet does when it gets to its destination. |
@ 08:15 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithAndrew, I have to agree with you. I don't think "arrogance" is the right term, but it is close, and it seems to me that this gentleman is so set in his ways and beliefs, that there is no longer any willingness for learning or expansion. |
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@ 10:47 am (GMT) |
Lane SalvatoRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithPaul and Andrew,I do think you also have to take some of his attitude within the context of the literal insanity over the 6.5 Creedmoor that the U.S. gun industry has caused and continues to sustain. You also have to couple that with the unmanaged reintroduction of wolves into the American West that has decimated entire herds of moose, large portions of the elk herd, etc. He is also doing this under the political backdrop of severe anti-hunting pressure from many leftist groups. I agree more with Nathan that his conclusions specifically about long range shooting, terminal ballistics, etc. are incorrect. Nathan is the expert in this area and he simply knows a lot more than the older guy about making the whole thing come together and work correctly and ethically. 99% of the long range "experts" that this older guy is exposed to are not qualified, and he knows it. Guarantee you he doesn't know Nathan or follow him. He's of a different generation and I doubt he's on the internet much. He's not going to run into Nathan in Montana or Wyoming. So as far as he knows he sees a bunch of irresponsible macho types teaching a bunch of even more irresponsible softies to shoot long range, cross-armed technique with their new 6.5's. But the older guy can't be dismissed out of hand concerning ethics and the fanboy mentality surrounding the underpowered and overhyped 6.5 Creemoor. His eyes and his demeanor tell the story of a guy who has watched the ethics of his country and the traditions that made hunting great begin to erode because of softies that want to learn to shoot long range and hunt long range with the same amount of effort that it takes to microwave popcorn. |
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@ 11:26 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithNo doubt Lane! My comments were deliberately harsher than perhaps was fair. I have seen a few other videos from this guy and have based my comments on all of them rather than this specific one. I have since watched this video and agree with most of your points above. That said, the common ground with what I have seen and read from Nathan and this guy is that they both hold opposing views to the majority in relation to the Creedmoor. Nathan has more broadly looked at the 6mm and 6.5mm bore though this video seems to focus on the trend of the Creedmoor.Either way, perhaps this guy has shut off his desire to continue learning in order to protect himself from current trends, who knows? But I do stand by my earlier comments. I think you must scrutinise and filter out the rubbish whilst keeping the gold. |
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@ 11:41 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithI should add that reading all the 6mm and 6.5mm Knowledgebase articles here on the site will give a great perspective of these bores and their use and limitations.Much more than an 11min YouTube video which seems to be the trend these days. It may best best to approach these type of videos as entertainment rather than as informative. |
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@ 03:46 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithSomehow, for whatever reason, I can't agree with you, Lane. My feeling is this guy must be dismissed out of hand. There is a feeling I get that this poor fellow is being manipulated or coerced in his diatribe. Just can't place any trust in someone who won't or can't look you in the eye (or camera) when trying to convince you of something that he is not really sure of himself. Nothing to do with the content of the video, just his demeanor and body language. Probably a really nice guy, who knows his guns and his business, but I would never buy anything from him, especially an opinion. |
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@ 06:07 pm (GMT) |
Simon CrowtherRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithI think the old boy is just getting a bit old and cantankerous, happens to us all.He's right about the Creedmore though, I spent ages messing around with with a ballistics calculator and comparing it to other ammunition and what we're told about it just doesn't seem to stack up. I was hoping Nathan would comment just to confirm my thoughts on this, I respect his opinion. Nathan gave a talk to our club and as a result I headed off to the range with my pack instead of a bipod and happily I can report that I'll never have to carry a bipod again. It annoys me intensely when we're mislead by marketing information like this.[b] |
@ 01:44 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithSorry - don't mean to hijack this thread, but I have to call this out:"You also have to couple that with the unmanaged reintroduction of wolves into the American West that has decimated entire herds of moose, large portions of the elk herd, etc." Lane - where I live in Montana we have the most robust elk populations that we have had in my lifetime. In many hunting districts there are bonus elk tags and extended seasons lasting up to 5 months. This is the case where I live and hunt and this alongside a robust, well managed wolf population with long seasons and unlimited wolf tags available to anyone that wants to buy up to five per person per year. Both creatures are numerous enough to cause issues with agricultural interests - thus the bonus tags and long seasons. Moose overall are headed down, but the biologists are at a loss as to precisely why. The area where I live is a bright spot for moose and they are frequently seen quite some distance out onto the prairies along riparian corridors. The one local problem factor for us seems to be parasitism by winter ticks - something Brian knows a lot about and has been discussed elsewhere in this forum. My point is that there are many things that enter into wildlife population health - disease (chronic wasting disease a major factor in some areas), parasites, predators (including you, me and the wolves) and perhaps most importantly, loss of key winter range habitat. Its a complicated and fluid system. Wolves have just become the latest poster child for "why I didn't see anything today". Its as if wolves never existed in the system before we showed up to hunt elk or moose. All that said, I'll shut up and lay my neck across the chopping block. Sorry again about hijacking the thread - back to the Creedmore! |
@ 06:06 am (GMT) |
Ricardo LaborinRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithSince it's almost fall and "Soy Latte" is already taken by the 7mm-08, we shall deem the Creedmoor the "Pumpkin Spice Latte", a seasonal favorite, with a free one time bundle offer of game magnet, cross-arm, hand-sandwich and tactical beard. Exciting times! |
@ 08:17 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithRicardo. I'm still enjoying my home made partitioned Swedish toffees made with ADI sprinklesAnd then there's some old mouldy Whelen cake in the cupboard to try. Remember "Bristling coastal defences And don't meddle in others affairs." The trouble with following a poor example. The new example should be poorly followed. Guys you know enough now thanks to Steph and Nathan's research. Too know better than to become Gossips! Is the Creedmoor worth all of the hot air it receives? You'd be better off spending time with your wife and children creating memories or sorting the winter firewood than wasting time on a mighty "Troll😠killer" |
@ 09:56 pm (GMT) |
David HartleyRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithI wonder how many of you have used the 6.5 Creedmoor for general hunting purposes? I have used mine for 9 months primarily for goat control but also red and fallow deer, and I absolutely love it. I shoot the 143gr ELD-X at 2800fps and enjoy half MOA accuracy and more down range energy than my .308. The sectional density of this projectile is 0.293. I have a friend who is using a slightly faster powder and with some minor modifications to the throat for an extra long COAL, safely achieving over 2900fps with the 139gr Lapua Scenar.Approximate goat tally to date for my Creedmoor is 230, plus 15 red deer and a couple of fallow. Ranges are typically 350-500m, terrain is west CNI hill country sheep farms. Most of the deer have been taken within 300m, couple at 400-ish, plus the one I emailed Nathan about a few weeks ago. I described to him the one apparent failure, a runty red yearling hit at 497m in the shoulder, knocking it clean off its feet. The deer got up and hobbled off and I failed to follow up which was a bad mistake on my behalf as I had assumed the animal was down. It was lost over the ridge line, and we failed to find it some hours later. Nathan, that deer was found shortly after I left the property by one of the young shepherds, which I only heard about 6 weeks after the fact. It was not far from where it was shot, it would have rolled down the face on the other side of the ridgeline, and over a near vertical cutting into a flooding drain about 10m below, and we simply missed in the foul weather (blame the dog ;). Now the reason I raise this today is because I have watched the Real Gunsmith, and have chosen not to subscribe to his channel. Three videos pertaining to bullet construction, energy and long range bullets. He seems to be on a crusade against a few of the more recent innovations in the market, using screwy logic, not unusual for older fellas, the example at the end of the "bullet technology" video is a case in point. In doing so, he uses examples of failure that have one common denominator: bad decision making, yet he seems to want to blame the tools. No need to get into any more on that. How this all comes together in this thread is that I think Creedmoor bashing by forum members is just the same as ELD-X bashing by Mr Randy Gunsmith. Used sensibly within its design capabilities, the 6.5 Creedmoor is a fantastic cartridge. The same logic applies to the ELD-X, used within the 2600-2000fps window it is a damn fine hunting bullet. Combined, the cartridge and projectile deliver very very good performance for me and my business partner (who uses the exact same rifle and bullet) in our hill country application. If shooters decide to try and shoot elk or moose or big bears at 900m with this combination, they are making a very poor decision. That is not the fault of the cartridge or the bullet, it's the fault of the shooter. But oftentimes it's the bullet and/or the cartridge that get the bad name. To be fair to Nathan in his reply to me, he did not disagree with the use of either in my application, suggesting I consider a softer bullet for 500m+ goats and small deer, which is what I have done with tests underway with the 140gr and 147gr ELD-M. I have a clear 600m limit with that rifle. But Nathan you'll remember as above, you did describe your frustration with the level of email you get about proper long range failures of the Creedmoor / ELD-X combination. I think that it's important to put that into the context of long range shooting and not maybe inadvertently promote the notion that either the cartridge or the bullet are fatally flawed in general or "normal" hunting terms. In short to mid range territory out to 600-ish metres, it is very very effective on NZ feral goats, and heavy red spikers and hinds around 250-300m out to around 400m, the cliche "emphatic" most certainly applies. At no stage have I felt under-gunned. I agree, some of the marketing is a bit iffy, as it is with other products in our sport, e.g. Sierra's GameChanger. But if reports filter through that there has been a proper long range failure, i.e. 700m+, blame the operator, not the tools! Personally, I haven't seen the Creedmoor being marketed or YouTube promoted as a proper long range cartridge by Hornady or rifle makers? That's probably because I don't pay attention to all that much on YouTube, especially American yee-ha hunting channels. I hope that this isn't the case, because that would do a great disservice to the cartridge, its origins and its creators. Simon, I have a spreadsheet comparing ballistic performance of the common non-magnum 6.5mm, 7mm, .270 and .30 cal cartridges using the Hornady 4DOF data for the ELD-X family of bullets. If you would like to see how they stack up against each other, happy to share with you. |
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@ 12:38 am (GMT) |
Simon CrowtherRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithDavid - thanks for the reply. I don't have anything against the Creedmore, I'm just sick of salesmen trying to sell me one.For the sort of hunting I do most centerfires 243 and upwards will do, although I fancy a 30-06. I'm using a 7mm-08 at the moment, and I really wanted a 308 but the rifle I wanted wasn't in stock in that caliber. My method of choosing calibers when buying a rifle is to look at the shelves in the nearby gunshops and see what is the most plentyfull and cheapest and I reload. After all a rifle without bullets is an ornament. The 6.5 Creedmore ammo was expensive not so long ago, hence the reason I didn't want one. I'm getting irked though by the constant marketing and salesmen that look at me in disbelief when I tell them I don't want a Creedmore. I'm sure the Creedmore is fine out to around 500 yards but I think its got to be marginal out at a 1000 yards plus. All academic to me though and I'm beginning to wish I hadn't started this thread. Thanks again for the reply. |
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@ 09:01 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithActually, Simon, it's a good thing you started this thread. This is what the "net" was supposed to be used for, the exchange of information and opinions. From what I have read here, it's all good. Opinions expressed politely and open discussion about real world results versus hypothetical performance. |
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@ 09:37 am (GMT) |
Warwick MarflittRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmithhttps://www.pewpewtactical.com/6-5-creedmoor-guide/ |
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@ 10:28 am (GMT) |
Ricardo LaborinRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real Gunsmith@ David Hartley - you are completely right, and your description of situations/experiences with your setup is awesome.Just to be in the same page, never cartridge bashing here, we're having some fun taking a crack at the PEOPLE happily fueling the craze (craze is the code word) - As NF states in the book with the 7-08, some wholesome friendly pokes. Saludos!! |
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@ 12:35 pm (GMT) |
David HartleyRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithOh dear. That Pew Tactical article is a bit of a let down eh.I think we can look at numerous aspects of our lives, and how we consume information, for instance how internet writers and YouTubers have made huge in-roads into aspects of the review systems that we used before, e.g. books, magazines. Now everyone is an expert. Fake news, don’t you just love it. Nice to see “fact check” becoming a more prevalent expression though, fact checking seems to be on the rise. Got a long way to go though... |
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@ 01:05 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithI agree David, genuinely struggling to be sure if it was serious or satire. |
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@ 01:21 pm (GMT) |
Simon CrowtherRe: Poor Cartridges for Long Range Hunting – The Real GunsmithI'll explain why I started the thread.Some years ago, I met a guy out in the bush, he was great at finding deer but couldn't shoot to save his life. At 100 to 150 yards, he kept gut shooting deer, his solution was to trade his rifle in for a Magnum, 270 WSM I think and top it of with a very cheap scope, that looked like it had come from Savebarn. Did this solve his problem: hell no! At a range one time, I met a guy that was new to hunting, he kept spraying lead down range with a Browning Automatic Rifle. The only place there wasn't any bullet holes was in the target: he looked at me and said: "I must be able to hit an animal with all those bullets." Apart from the safety aspects of inexperienced hunters spraying bullets all over public land, can you imagine the amount of horribly maimed animals that techniques like these must produce. Similarly, if the 6.5 Creedmore is marketed to people like the above as an out of the box long range hunting solution (which it is not), can you imagine the carnage and misery in maimed animals that will be the result. This is irresponsible marketing! So again, I don't have a problem with the Creedmore itself, I'm sure that those of you here that use it are very competent with it, it's just the claims that are being made for it. Better to learn to shoot! PS, before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't have anything against semi-automatic weapons either. |
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