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Making the Best of a Bad Shot

11 Dec 2018
@ 02:26 pm (GMT)

Lane Salvato

I had a chance to see what happened when I made a poor shot over the weekend. I was using the 168 grain ELD-M with my 308 hunting for Whitetail Deer. This particular buck was a bit over 200 yards. I just didn't get the bullet forward enough or low enough and ended up hitting him in the spine.

It took me about 5 minutes to get to the buck from my hide position and he was dead by the time I got to him. When examining the wound his spine was broken cleanly in half and there was an exit wound of at least 1-inch in diameter.

We never want to make a bad shot, make a marginal hit, or in any other way cause a delayed kill. However, this happens to anyone who hunts regularly. The tendency toward lighter cartridges is one thing if all other factors are perfect. When it goes bad there isn't any such thing as overkill. A heavy bullet that wounds violently shot out of an adequate caliber for the game at hand is something that is of great value.

Nathan's 90% rule discussed at length in the cartridges book is something of even greater value. I'd encourage anyone who has not read it to get it. The book helped me a lot.

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13 Dec 2018 @ 03:50 am (GMT)	Quote this Paul Leverman Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Good post, Lane. It is not a perfect world, and things go wrong constantly, case in point. If you have a contingency plan (ELD-M), sometimes it's not so bad after all. How did the bullet behave? Any photos? Can you give us an approximate on the amount of damage surrounding the wound channel? Good shot.
13 Dec 2018 @ 05:32 am (GMT)	Quote this Lane Salvato Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Paul, The spine was shattered to the point that I could get a finger all the way through. The exit wound blew out one rib completely. The exit wound was at least an inch in diameter and without sounding too graphic there was a very nice piece of rib meat hanging out the other side. A small fragment of either the bullet or the rib nicked the top of the gut but not enough to cause any mess. I just had to be careful when cleaning him. Had I hit him further forward it would have been an immediate bang-flop but I think he took a step or I just whiffed the shot and the bullet fell too far back. I'm sold on 168 grain ELD-M out of the 308 or the 30-06 for everything up to elk. If I get a chance to hunt elk I'll switch to a larger bullet or just take my 338 Win. Mag.
13 Dec 2018 @ 10:31 am (GMT)	Quote this Frank Vallich Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Lane. Match bullet for hunting. Manufacturer does not recommend the bullet for hunting. Yet you would attempt to use this bullet for a 200 yard shot on an elk or switch to a heavier bullet or take your .338 Win Mag. Well, which is it? 168 ELD-M or heavier bullet in .308, 30-06 or use your .338? At 200 yards you were too high. By at least 8 inches. You shot to the right telling us all your pulling the trigger OR there was a wind vortex that blew the bullet high and to the right. Right! Recommendation. 1/ More range time for better shot placement. Use your ELD-M for practice 2/ Use a bullet recommenced for hunting. The 178 ELD-X. Engineered for hunting and Accurate. Yes I resent the fact you will use an animal for experimental shooting. Much as I resent the sods at the gun range that clamp their weapon into a vice like device to "ZERO" their scope. They are Zeros! Then "A hunting they go".
13 Dec 2018 @ 11:41 am (GMT)	Quote this Chris Murphy Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Frank I dont think you quite get it the 168 ELD-M in a 308 kills far better than the X bullet I and Nathan both use the 180 ELD-M in our Practicals and have made some very impressive kills also alot of the Hornady staff use the M bullet for hunting and if you are the type to follow what the packet says you would use a Long range Accubond over the ELD-M for long rang hunting and I would resent you for this as it doesnt kill well at long range so best you take a step back and do your homework
13 Dec 2018 @ 12:14 pm (GMT)	Quote this Lane Salvato Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot What Chris said. Except I don’t use a Practical for my magnum I use a 338 Winny. I’d definitely kill elk with an ELD-M but just a heavier bullet. They work good. As far as making a bad shot, yes. That’s the point. It happens. Nobody wants it but it does happen. That the idea of using a big bullet for the animal being hunted and a bullet that violently woulds like the ELD-M. Give it a try you’ll love it.
13 Dec 2018 @ 02:01 pm (GMT)	Quote this Frank Vallich Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Chris/Lane My selection of a 168 for a 1/12 twist rate rifling is the Barnes. Barnes specifies 1/11 but the MOA is 0.5 at 100 yards. Works well with my .308. I've shot the Hornady Z-Max 168, still have 60 cartridges, with an equal MOA of 0.5. but I'm a packet reader striving for an ethical kill. I believe what the manufacturer claims after reading the experiences of hunters on various forums backing up the claims. Therefore I select Barnes for the hunt. The 178 ELD-X: I've fired this cartridge at paper only. Three shots at 200 yards with basically each bullet into the first hole. I thought I had missed the third shot and walking down range to the target proved the accuracy. Same situation on a second day. The 178 though required readjustment of the scope as it shot three inches high and two to the right in comparison to the 168s. I'm not disputing the accuracy of the 168 EDL-M. I'm uncertain of the wound characteristic. I 'm able to appreciate a 180 gr. shot from a Practical as a bone bashing bullet. Hell, 3100 FPS from the muzzle packs kinetic energy. Chris: Is there an ELD-X cartridge or Bullet that you have fired from your Practical to substantiate the statement that the bullet is sub par? What did you wound or drop with the ELD-X? Regarding the Accubond you recommend. Firing a 165 gr the accuracy was never achieved to support a 400 yard shot. The ELD-X and Barnes cartridges are a tight fit in the magazine in comparison to the Accubond. Doing my homework best I can. Lane: As the ELD-M works for you, keep at it. Much like the Barnes works and I'm steadfast and hesitant to change. The experienced accuracy of the 178 ELD-X and the manufacturers packet information certainly is creating the impression that this cartridge has long range potential.
13 Dec 2018 @ 04:47 pm (GMT)	Quote this Garrett Pasquale Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot FRANK. Oh the argumentative one. I think you will find that Lane is sharing his findings with a bunch of people that are on the same page and have done there research on impact velocities and what projectiles works within those parameters for a given cartridge(in real life not on a ballistics calculator). You on the the other hand have absolutely no idea what you are talking about because if you did you wouldn't be shooting a heavy projectile that requires a high velocity to expand out of a 308. Even the barnes bullet advocates know that it is best to shoot a lighter weight projectile than normal for that very reason. e.g.. 110 grain or 130 grain from a 308 to get the higher velocity for the bullet to perform/expand. Shooting at live targets over 300 yards is very different than shooting at paper. Go back to your laptop and get your maths right. Then once you have done that get off of your couch and go and test it out for yourself, just like Lane has... then report back. No offense personally, just physics.
14 Dec 2018 @ 08:10 am (GMT)	Quote this Frank Vallich Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Hello Garrett: Do you know someone I know? Haha If you did you would know I'm never on the couch. Anyways. I have not shot the Barnes 168 beyond 300 yards at an ungulate. Much too concerned about a non fatal wound such as the ungulate moving and the shoulder is struck rather than heart and lungs. Regarding the 178 ELD-X. It is designed to expand at lower velocities. Best I am able to describe this bullet is a two stage projectile. Read the packet information. Yes it is the manufacturers claim but Hornady is an organization that has a reputation to maintain. In today's media and communication network word of a lie would travel swiftly. It is easy to write that the bullet is a poor performer but where is the evidence of such a statement? To date the accuracy of the 178 ELD-X is outstanding fired from the .308 1/12 twist 26 inch heavy hammer forged 4 land barrel. It would be great to provide a report using the 178 ELD-X. Once again I am entering my name in for the ungulate draws of moose, elk and mule deer for 2019. Hope to have off the couch information for self and anyone interested. Thanks for the interest regarding a 650 yard shot. Probably the furthest I would use the 178 ELD-X fired from a .308. Cheers!
14 Dec 2018 @ 08:46 am (GMT)	Quote this Chris Murphy Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Ok so now we get down to it. the X bullet will expand at low velocity 1800fps is the limit but the M bullet will still FRAGMENT which is what we want from a long range hunting bullet (advertised for hunting or not) the X bullet is basically a sleek SST a good bullet for sure but for normal hunting ranges out to intermediate range as velocity drops off we see delayed kills and if your cartage is starting off slow (308) then it doesn't take long for it to get even slower. You mention accuracy a lot but there is no good being able to hid and animal if the wound is going to be small. Forget what the packet says forget what the magazines and internet says get out and test stuff for yourself, load up some ELD-Ms shoot some animal then come back and tell us how great they kill
14 Dec 2018 @ 08:48 am (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Frank, if you want to understand more about the bullets you have been talking about including the ELD-X, please read my book - Long Range Cartridges. Left: Me (holding the book I recommended to you). Right: Dave Emary, head ballistician at Hornady.
14 Dec 2018 @ 01:15 pm (GMT)	Quote this Frank Vallich Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Gentlemen! Thanks for your time. I will purchase Long Range Cartridges. Always willing to learn more than I know. Striving to understand the reality of manufacturing processes.
14 Dec 2018 @ 05:38 pm (GMT)	Quote this Frank Vallich Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Hi All: After reading the chapters important to our discussion, not an argument by any means, I readily accept the challenge to use an ELD-M. Lane, I was too quick to comment about using experimental bullets for a hunt. I do hope your correct that I will come to love the ELD-M. Appears the physics of using the 168 gr for a .308 may work well. Can't see myself loading a 110 gr or 130 gr while humping in grizzly territory. As far as go and shoot some animal. I will be canvassing farmers in the area asking if they require coyote maintenance. Thanks for another informative book Nathan.
16 Dec 2018 @ 03:13 pm (GMT)	Quote this Frank Vallich Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Out to the bush today. Loaded the .308 with 168 Z-Max. No coyotes but I did harvest 4 Ruff Grouse with 3 shots. Can't imagine a better scenario than two Ruffs roosting at 1530 hour twenty feet up and 45 feet out one sitting above the other. Head off the bottom one and slammed the breast of the upper, can't do that with an ELD-M Haha, only with the 20 guage using 2 3/4 inch 6 shot. Harvested the last two just at sunset 1638 hour. Took three minutes to locate the last bird as the bush was dark. Stir fry tonight. Been reading the Long Range Cartridges book.The physics do not recommend using 110 or 130 long range for the .308 when hunting ungulate.
16 Dec 2018 @ 04:46 pm (GMT)	Quote this Chris Murphy Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot The Z max is exactly the same construction as the A max / ELDM just with a green tip
17 Dec 2018 @ 08:34 am (GMT)	Quote this Lane Salvato Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Chris, as much as I would like to agree with you on the Z-Max I have to point out that the post apocalyptic green tip is the only thing standing between a hunter and a possible hoard of zombies. It's why the bullets work on zombies. If you had a red tip you'd be screwed. That's why it's important to have a good knife so that if you run out of green tips you're not without some type of defense. I agree with everything else you said.
17 Dec 2018 @ 03:18 pm (GMT)	Quote this Chris Murphy Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot 😂🤣👌 good from you Lane!!!
17 Dec 2018 @ 09:56 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot I have used the Z Max almost exclusively with extremely devastating result,the good kind of devastating, as in massive tissue destruction. Why is this good? Because the deaths of the animals is near instantaneous. There can be no other concern before this, aside from the safety of others and yourself of course. But in terms of the taking of a life, humane death must be paramount. The Z Max/A Max/ELD M excels in this role. And why not have a match bullet that can do this? All the more reason we should feel blessed with the knowledge of others. My current loading for my 308 is the 168gr Z Max on top of 47.5gr of AR2208 with Winchester brass seated to 71mm. This gives me 2815fps. Quite a hot load. Rifle is a heavy barrel Howa M1500 24" barrel and Hogue stock, bedded and stabilised as per Nathan's books. Get the others in the series and also check out some of the videos. The M700 video is a great one!
18 Dec 2018 @ 12:36 am (GMT)	Quote this Lane Salvato Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Andrew, I've had the same results as far as fast killing. My velocity is slower than yours but the results are about the same. It's just a wonderful round. I've already seen that these bullets work on heavier animals and very light animals with the same authority. I never fired these at all prior to using them in my 308 and I'd never go back to another round. If needed an elk load I'd just get a heavier Z-Max (ELD-M). The 175 grain lead-free DRT's work just as well out of a 308 but are a bit harder to come by. Same violent wounding though.
18 Dec 2018 @ 12:58 am (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Perhaps I should add a caveat that it excels in this role when used with expectations regarding the bullet's speed... too fast or too slow will limit what happens of course.
18 Dec 2018 @ 01:02 am (GMT)	Quote this Andrew Murray Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Great to hear Lane. I am a little strapped for budget and I have not yet found the DRTs for sale here in Australia. But that doesn't mean I won't come across them. They really are a wonderful projectile.
18 Dec 2018 @ 09:50 am (GMT)	Quote this Warwick Marflitt Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Don't disregard the dirty old Partition boys. You can dual load your magazine. I have a partition on top ready for a close up quick shot. Out to two hundred yards and if I see Rudolph grazing in the yonder yardage. I have time to Cycle out the Partition,get into position, range find, set turrets' shut the bolt on an A-Max and take a relaxed and calculated shot. The best hunting advice that I ever got was "Take your time ". I don't get it. How grown men get "buck fever" when they see a deer. Stop. Sit and watch it. Study how it grazes how fast it walks what its eating. Calm yourselves and Live in the moment.... get a grip and control of your breathing and heart rate. Tell me.... Do you get this excited at the butchery section of the supermarket? No! So why-so in mother nature's live meat section? Thinking and planning what you do when in hunting situations and before you go hunting is just as important as accuracy and knowing the correct bullet selection for the situation. Anyone know of a book about the psychological and physical aspects of hunting?
18 Dec 2018 @ 10:57 am (GMT)	Quote this Frank Vallich Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot The only book I know of is "On Killing". The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Physical aspect. Stretch the body, exercise the major muscle groups and walk a mile or two as often as possible. Regarding the Dual load: Great idea and very practical when the long range cartridge just shoots higher and the requirement for dialing the turrets is negated. Prefer two magazines though as follow up shots are at times required especially, back in the day, when I hunted moose with a .303. The Hornady Z Max is a HOT Load shooting 1.5 inches above the Barnes 168 at 100 yards and then the experience of firing the cartridges becomes the guideline down field using the reticle. Had a good chuckle on Sunday as the Hornady advertisement on an SST cartridge box had a set of racing headers belching flame. Hahaha
18 Dec 2018 @ 01:00 pm (GMT)	Quote this Caleb Mayfield Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Quote: The best hunting advice that I ever got was "Take your time ". I don't get it. How grown men get "buck fever" when they see a deer. I can't say I've never been guilty of it, but it's a fascinating reaction. I started trying a long time ago to overcome this. I created a mental checklist to help me fight it. There is still an initial "There's a deer!" excitement, but within a few seconds everything is calming back down and I start my checklist. Breath Is this a deer I want to shoot? Breath Range? Breath Anticipated travel and places to shoot on that route Breath Shot placement at those locations Breath and so on.
19 Dec 2018 @ 03:39 am (GMT)	Quote this mark korte Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Caleb - Thats a great checklist. But sometimes you've got maybe those first two breaths and then your whitetail has disappeared back into the brush. This seems especially prevalent with animals that I'm most interested in after answering that second question!
19 Dec 2018 @ 03:40 am (GMT)	Quote this mark korte Re: Making the Best of a Bad Shot Make that the second breath and the first question!