@ 04:46 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRecently I watched a video by a professional guide demonstrating how to install and time a muzzle brake. The brakes ports were mostly on the sides, but the top also had 4 quarter inch holes in it. Timing it consisted of installing shim washers of differ thicknesses so the holes on top were pointing straight up. The gun was a 7mm RM with a standard hunting stock.The guide said the ports in the top eliminated muzzle jump altogether, because the force of the gasses exiting the top prevented the muzzle from rising. At first I thought that was amazing, but after I thought about it, I wondered how the small amount of air sitting in the barrel ahead of the bullet before the powder is detonated, could be compressed enough to counteract muzzle jump that occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel. Muzzle jump occurs because the butt of the stock is lower than the plane of the barrel. It begins as soon as the powder detonates, and continues until all the gas following bullet has left the muzzle. I can see how the super-compressed gasses behind the bullet could produce a downward force on the muzzle after the bullet has departed the muzzle. But thats only going to help return the barrel to its position before detonation. Its not going to keep the muzzle level before the bullet leaves the muzzle. Its true that muzzle brakes reduce recoil because some of the gasses behind the bullet are expelled laterally instead of directly opposite to the recoil force. But that happens after the bullet is on its way. Any muzzle jump counteracted by ports in the top of the brake would have no effect on inaccuracy caused by muzzle jump that occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel. |
@ 01:01 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Muzzle jumpThe reason I brought this up is because recoil reduction seems to be all the rage these days. Some of the new Remington Model 700s come with a muzzle brake, even those chambered in 243.I previously thought recoil reduction would automatically improve accuracy. But clearly it wont, unless the cause of inaccuracy is flinch. Theres no way a brake could affect the direction the muzzle is pointed until after the bullet has left the muzzle. |
@ 05:22 pm (GMT) |
VinceRe: Muzzle jumpHi ScottI wonder if they are talking about reducing muzzle flip so you can observe impacts on target, they don't eliminate it, but it is definitely reduced Cheers Vince |
@ 07:23 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Muzzle jumpHi Vince. Yes. Thats an advantage of a brake. I dont use one because I will take a shot without ear protection if it presents itself. Nor do I use a suppressor, due to the tax in the US. (Theres a $200 fed govt tax on them here.)I had always assumed, though, that a brake or suppressor would help keep the gun motionless for the shot until I saw the video and thought about it. |
@ 09:40 am (GMT) |
Ben LawRe: Muzzle jumpbrakes that vent gas up but not down, attempting to stop muzzle jump or avoid debris on the ground can introduce a problem with too much downward force on the muzzle.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSi7ZAQk1MQ |
@ 04:45 pm (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Muzzle jumpHi Ben. Thanks. The concept of recoil happening before the bullet leaves the muzzle also seems to be lost on Mark, as it was on me until I thought about it. The brake only dampens the recoil that occurs after the bullet is gone. The orientation of the ports on a brake has no effect on inaccuracy caused by recoil before the bullet leaves the muzzle. However, I have read that the wash of super-compressed gasses behind a bullet can overtake and enshroud the bullet as it leaves the muzzle. So maybe venting those gasses sideways helps iin that regard. |
@ 09:00 pm (GMT) |
Ben LawRe: Muzzle jumpI do believe I have heard Mark state at some point that recoil does begin before the bullet leaves the muzzle. I'm not sure it's totally lost on him.I would expect the brake does dampen some recoil before the bullet is gone as there will be some gas escaping the muzzle ahead of the bullet. Happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong on any of this. |
@ 03:35 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Muzzle jumpMaybe enough gas gets ahead of the bullet while its in the freebore for a brake to counteract some of the pre-flight recoil. But from an accuracy standpoint, it wouldnt make sense to allow a light hunting rifle to free recoil, hoping that the brake will correct for any muzzle jump that occurs before the bullet is on its way.Nathan mentions in the second edition of LR Rifles that its impractical to make a perfectly straight stock, with the comb on the same plane as the bore, because there has to be enough clearance to remove the bolt. Somebody makes one, but theres a an adjustable cheek riser that has to be removed to get the bolt out. Im leery of brakes. Hearing damage is permanent, even though it seems like you recover in a day or two. I never wore ear protection when I was younger. Now I cant hear my cell phone ringing over highway road noise. |
@ 01:15 am (GMT) |
David LandwehrRe: Muzzle jumpNewton and his laws strikes again. For every action there is equal and opposite reaction. So as soon as the bullet moves, recoil starts. I don't buy enough gasses getting past the bullet for any material reduction in recoil from a brake before the bullet leaves the barrel. Thus the muzzle is lifting before the brake does any work.I think brakes are very effective at reducing felt recoil from the gasses and allowing a shooter to get back on target quicker and perhaps reducing flinch. My guess with the bullet gone the gass velocity increases dramatically with loss of restriction so the brake does its best work, almost all of its work once the bullet is gone. As far as the bullet goes, the muzzle has flipped and changed its path to target. Hold that forend. |
@ 10:15 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Muzzle jumpHolding on to the forend not only counteracts muzzle jump, it also absorbs some of the rearward force of recoil, so that its not all directed into your shoulder. Same with a sling snugly binding your forend hand to the forend. . . . The sling absorbs both muzzle jump and rearward recoil.This could all be tested by shooting the same loads out of the same rifle, braked and unbraked, free-recoiling and holding onto it. Or, you can apply common sense. I rarely get an opportunity to shoot at game where I dont need to hold the forend. I dont hunt out of a blind with a windowsill. |
@ 04:23 pm (GMT) |
David LenziRe: Muzzle jumpI'd argue that Brian Litz demonstrated fairly conclusively that muzzle brakes don't do anything at all for the inherent precision of the system. As you note, the work they do takes place AFTER the bullet has existed and, thus, has no bearing at all on movement under recoil before that event.What the brake does do, especially for people that are not using optimal technique, is help minimize muzzle jump and speed recovery to enable spotting your own shots (hopefully impacts). The period between shot and impact/miss can be short indeed, so getting back on target quickly is important in that regard. Now, from a shooter comfort and endurance standpoint, they might matter quite a lot... and so help the shooter part of the the rifle-shooter system. What does seem to improve precision is adding weight the the muzzle... be it a suppressor, a tuner (also effectively bunk from a functionality standpoint), brake or some combo thereof. I would be hard pressed to use a brake that isn't either professionally installed and timed or a so-called "self timing" brake that I position to my desired and simply fasten in place with commonly available tools. If I decide to swap the brake between rifles, I can do so quickly and without re-timing or losing the washers. |
@ 06:22 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Muzzle jumpThanks, David. If Litz said it, Im sure he did the testing to back up his statement. I wanted a definitive answer before I made a decision whether to try a brake.I was mistaken when I said earlier that it is Remington that is selling guns in all calibers with brakes. Its Weatherby I was thinking of. Their new Model 307 short action rifles in 243, 6mm CM, and 308 all come with brakes. That made me wonder if a brake has any effect on accuracy. As Nathan points out, one can develop a flinch in anticipation of a blast in the face as easily as in anticipation of a poke in the shoulder. But my question was whether accuracy is enhanced by a brake when the shooter variable is removed from the equation. Clearly its not. As you said, being able to spot ones shot is worthwhile. But sometimes game doesnt stand around long enough for you to don hearing protection. If you take the shot without it you risk a case of chronic tinnitus. |
@ 12:07 pm (GMT) |
David LenziRe: Muzzle jumpIt was a good read - not as accessible as Nathan's work, to be sure, but worthwhile in its own right. I think Litz has done a good job of carrying forward Nathan's message, even if he (and others) may not realize it: Recoil management is paramount... and failure to manage recoil effectively will predictably degrade precision.My son shoots better with a suppressor than with a bare muzzle or with a brake in place. The brake certainly does more to reduce felt recoil, but the concussion is intense and off putting for him. I get that. I am mindful of brake use because it is unpleasant to be concussed repeatedly and leave the range with a headache barring a compelling need. Nathan's recommendation for a "general hack" with a 20" barrel remains quite maneuverable with a suppressor mounted in my experience. Having carried a braked rifle in the field for hunting on one occasion (hogs at close range), I will not do so again. I'll stick with my age and IED based hearing degradation and call it good ;-). |