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> 1MOA plus flyers
1MOA plus flyers
@ 12:28 am (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsI've owned a Weatherby with wood stock in 7mmRemMag for nearly two years. This was purchased not long before I discovered Nathan's site and books. The reason I went looking for information and consequently found Nathan was I couldn't get accuracy out of the gun. I'm still suffering. Yesterday I took it to the range and managed around 1MOA, which I think is around the best it's going to give me, however around one in five rounds was a flyer, up to 10cm off target. I manage to get my Howa 243 to consistently give just-under-moa and can put five rounds from my 22 into nearly the same ragged hole, so the spread from my 7mm is frustrating to say the least. The rounds (154gr Hornady ) are hand loaded but my chrony shows they have a spread of around 12ft/sec, so that's not the issue. The rifle was professionally bedded and I can see nowhere it is rubbing etc. I've also turned the king screw and the barrel is not climbing. I did have a serious problem with the trigger, it broke all over the place and crept around like a politician. This was recently fixed when a gunsmith found two free floating metal shavings, like you'd get from a drillbit, in the mechanism. Now it's good and set at 2lbs. The barrel does copper up and needs a lot of cleaning. So my questions is, what do I investigate from here. The rifle is carried for deer in fairly close, say 100m to 300m.thanks Warrick |
Replies
@ 12:40 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersHi Warrick, I have gone through this step by step (how to) in the next book.I will contact you directly to help you through this. |
@ 02:02 am (GMT) |
jason brownRe: 1MOA plus flyersif it makes a difference my 7mm (magnum) was much the same with the 154 sst. it shot .5 with factory superformance.(looking back probably with the odd flyer making groups bigger which I thought was me, but wasnt) so I figured I could get the same with hand loads.I used about 90 of those projectiles with all types of loads. and only got about 1 moa as well. like I said I thought it must of me struggling to shoot this magnum straight. I switch to 162 amax, and before long I had a .3 moa group. which I was happy with. 1st it was acceptable groups but 2nd it proved to me it wasn't my driving of the magnum. I guess my rifle just didn't like them, well at least with that powder/primer/ combination. I cant wait for the new book Nathan. im starting to think if I clean leaving a fairly smooth finish I get plenty of copper at the muzzle in just too shots. yet the bore left with a finish which is a bit more rough, seems to copper less. its either that or if I clean more freguently as in shoot two clean shoot two and clean, rather than long strings or sessions between cleanings it coppers more slowly. I wonder if a aftermarket match barrel behaves better. hense, the reason, looking forward to the new book. any news on the matrix projectiles landing in n.z ? |
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@ 03:17 am (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyersJason, well that's certainly something I haven't tried. I was pretty happy with the effect of the 154sst on deer at 100m to 300m, so didn't experiment with heavier projectiles. Funny, I tried all sorts of ammo with my 22 but never thought to do the same with the 7mm. Possibly the 162 Amax is a bit frangable for these distances, I mostly go for red deer, so I might read up and see what else is worth experimenting with. That being said, the projectile is possibly accounting for the 1moa, but it's the 10cm flyer that really concerns me. I should have mentioned in my first post that it's not just 10cm up or down from the bull but there's also a sideways component. |
@ 03:37 am (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 1MOA plus flyersG'day WarrickDoes it come back to the original group after the flyer? If yes, it could be the projectile? I had a similar problem years ago caused by damage to the heel (back) of the projectile. My gunsmith showed me, you can damage the tip with no effect but the heel of the projectile is the last thing that leaves the barrel. Damage to the heel or to the crown of the barrel with have a huge effect on accuracy. I had a bad batch of Remington core-locks. Changed pills, all good again! Bob |
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@ 03:49 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersHi Jason, no word on Matrix for NZ and not likely either. Copper supply is still a major issue. Marshal is able to keep up with online orders from Canadian and U.S customers but is unable to increase to the point of fulfilling bulk orders for NZ. |
@ 06:27 am (GMT) |
Luke EdwardsRe: 1MOA plus flyersI have a weatherby vanguard 308 and am having trouble with accuracy also , it has been pillar beded and the barell is floating free but there are scuff marks on the barell from the fore end of the stock and I am assuming that barell whip is to blame .The question I have is , will bedding under the receiver help with excessive barell whip? Any help will be appreciated |
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@ 04:45 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersHi Luke, I am a bit confused by your description so we need to clarify things a bit. Don't feel embarressed by the following please as it is all learning.You say that the barrel is free floating but that the barrel has scuff marks- this means it is either not free floating or the marks are from earlier on. The barrel cannot whip and touch a properly floated stock forend. You say that the action has been pillar bedded but you wonder if the action needs bedding? Or are you wondering if the existing bedding should be enough to stop barrel whip. The answer to the latter is- if a barrel is suffering from harmonic issues, bedding both the action and the beginning of the barrel can dampen harmonic vibrations. But if the barrel is truly in a poor state, pressure point bedding at the forend may be the only fix. That said, pressure point bedding can be undesriable as the rifle will shoot differently when warm. The best fix is to pull and replace the barrel. However, before going down the path of possible barrel whip, I would prefer it if you read books 1 and 3 of my series. If you can afford it, these will give you a much clearer understanding of the potential problems of the Vanguard and how to address each issue yourself. The main aspects you need to explore are: Bore and throat finish Bedding- testing to see if the actual bedding job on your rifle was helpful or detrimental. How to check and lap the locking lugs. Trigger consideration and work. The books will take you through the basics until you have a good grasp on the situation. You can then set about the above tasks. I hope that helps answer your questions Luke. |
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@ 06:17 pm (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyersLuke, just adding to what Nathan is saying, I've been following the development of three Howas / Weatherbys at my club, they're ALL having the same issues. They've all been bedded etc (by the same gunsmith) and still chuck patterns in the two inch range at 100m. One bloke phoned me last night, said he'd taken his to a separate gunsmith who re-bedded and re-worked the trigger, he's now getting slightly better than 1MOA and so pleased to be rid of the frustration he could cry. So, the moral is, check the quality of the bedding, if it's not good then it's making your life worse. I'm going to pull my bedding out and do it again, myself this time, using Nathan's methods and materials. With these rifles, it's also very worthwhile getting the trigger worked over by a trigger expert. Shop around until you know you have the right smithy. I made the mistake of using the wrong guy and it's cost me a year of hair-pulling angst. |
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@ 08:12 am (GMT) |
Luke EdwardsRe: 1MOA plus flyersThanks for the comments , what I noticed was I was having trouble with groups so I took to the stock with the angle grinder so the barrel wouldn't touch the stock and in doing this noticed someone had done a bedding job in front of the recoil lug that was pushing on the barrel . I also took this out with a die grinder then took it to a gunsmith to get the action bedded and a new trigger expecting this to fix the problems but it didn't . After a lot of effing around noticed new scuff marks on the barrel so I put a piece of three millimetre thick steel plate under the receiver just behind the recoil lug this lifted the fore end of the barrel and reduced the groups significantly.Yes I think the bedding needs redoing perhaps thicker than it was previously the question I should have asked was do you think , bedding at the start of the barrel from the recoil lug forwards will help with accuracy. Also how thick can the match grade bedding compound be used successfully. Hope I have included enough info . Thanks for your interest . |
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@ 09:52 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersHi Luke. Yes, re-bed the rifle! It sounds like it needs some good lovin.Our bedding compound can be used to a decent thickness so no worries in this regard. That said, the greater the fill (side walls), the greater the risk of air bubbles due to operator error. Care must be taken as per the instructions supplied and videos. But realistically, you should remove all existing bedding compound, stabilize (plastic stocks), then bed. Set the correct height for bedding (using front plasticine dam), then commence bedding. If the stock is plastic, burn the inner stock material with a hot knife or hot wire to remove petroleum and also create mechanical locks. The inner stock walls should look like corduroy pants when you are done. Bed the tang and then bed from the front of the magazine well forwards to the end of the barrel parallel. In the below photo, I have performed a full length bedding job which requires a degree of experience to perform. 
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@ 11:03 pm (GMT) |
Bob MavinRe: 1MOA plus flyersG'day NathanThat's a nice job, no air bubbles??? Just to clear something up in your above post. You do mean bed both ends at the same time I assume? "Bed the tang and then bed from the front of the magazine" Cheers Bob |
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@ 11:07 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersYes, that definitely came out wrong. You are correct, bed both ends at the same time. |
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@ 05:39 am (GMT) |
Luke EdwardsRe: 1MOA plus flyersWill give it a crack and let you know how it goes . Thanks again. |
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@ 12:07 am (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyers
I took my Howa .243 to the range yesterday to catch up with it, I haven't visited it much lately. I wasn't overly excited by the results, accuracy really went down after 20 rounds. The rifle groups just over 1MOA at best and fouls like a duck on your front lawn. So after scrubbing copper for an hour I took this photo. Reading the first part of Nathan's new book it looks like circumferential gun drill burrs aplenty. Apparently I'm in for a long haul on this one. At least I've got nothing to loose. (The abundant white lines are just fluff from the mat, such is my skill with a camera). Then again, I might just dump it and put my effort into the 7mmRem Mag. |
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@ 05:27 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersHmm, you could use the .243 for practice bedding and lapping etc before moving onto the 7mm Rem Mag. But it does involve a degree of time and if you are busy, you may simply want to focus on the 7mm Rem Mag. Six of one, half a dozen of the other... |
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@ 08:56 pm (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyersI've gone straight to the 7 mill. We've had some wild weather last two days and been without power since yesterday arvo, so perfect for getting stuck in. Lapped the bolt lugs. I didn't have any grit so shaved some 200 grit wet and dry, collected the dust and mixed it with a drop of fine oil, seemed to work. The benefit was, I ended up with a very sharp workshop knife ! Next step, examine the old bedding and decide if it needs re-doing. |
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@ 09:01 pm (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyersPS. I wish I'd read Nathan's books BEFORE I purchased my rifles |
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@ 09:21 pm (GMT) |
jason brownRe: 1MOA plus flyersyip, cheap investment to get you on the right track for any buyers reading this. |
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@ 08:59 pm (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyersSo, after following the steps in Nathan's latest book I discovered what the issue is with my 7mm rem mag, why I'm getting flyers. The rifling at the muzzle is splayed. What I mean is, the grooves get slightly wider and the ribs get slightly smaller toward the exit, not something you would normally notice unless taking a good look under magnification. Apparently, at some time, the rifle was fired with a droplet of water in the bore. As I'm the only one who's used it, the sod-bucket who did this is me. I can't remember ever doing so, but the evidence is there. Maybe I left some cleaning fluid in, who knows. Anyway, the remedy is to cut off a length of barrel and re-crown. I've decided to re-barrel and have placed an order with True-flight, taking the opportunity to go with 26 inches and a medium weight, number 3 profile. I'll keep you informed of progress. |
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@ 11:09 pm (GMT) |
jasonRe: 1MOA plus flyersthat must be hard to see the difference even under magnification, is there a way to measure it as well?is that a lighter than sendero contour? are you doing a 9 twist? sounds exciting. |
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@ 12:27 am (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyersI've just come back from inspecting a 3 weight barrel and it looks lighter than the sendero. Kind of a halfway house between sporter weight and the full monty varmint. The Weatherby is a walk around rifle but the ground I hunt is relatively flat and I don't have to go more than 10km in a day, so the extra weight shouldn't be an issue. That being said, I am a city slicker....Yep, gone for 1 : 9 twist. |
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@ 12:56 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersA True-Flite 3 is around .650 at the muzzle Warrick. Its the same as the old Sako rifles (Finnbear). It is a good compromise for a magnum seven.This is my old 7mm RUM with a #3 TF barrel (162gr SST). 
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@ 12:09 am (GMT) |
Warrick EdmondsRe: 1MOA plus flyersSo, seven weeks ago I ordered my True-flight barrel. It was ready for delivery after four weeks, which is as promised. However,... seven weeks ago I also rang The South Australian Firearms Division and asked about importation forms etc, was told to send in my application two weeks before expected delivery, so they would coincide. So, of course, five weeks after that I'm still waiting. Rang SAPOL today and they acknowledged receipt of my application but said it could be a while yet. How long ? Don't know but we'll get around to it. When I advised True-Flight they said other customers from South Aust have cancelled after waiting three months! Shizen. Well, I'm a Zen sort of guy so will do my best to wait it out calmly. |
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@ 12:38 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: 1MOA plus flyersHow annoying. I hope it all works out Warrick. |
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@ 11:00 am (GMT) |
Luke EdwardsRe: 1MOA plus flyersI know this an old post, I have corrected my 308, the scope rings were not playing the game the rifle is now shooting into the same hole I do have an occasional flyer a friend told me to weigh my brass I did and guess what there was a big variation in weights between brands. The thing is that external dimensions are the same, so the inside dimensions must be different causing pressure variations perhaps this is causing the flyers. |
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