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Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer?

10 Nov 2014
@ 03:44 pm (GMT)

Jake long

[b]I have been reading and reading forum after forum and stumbled onto this site. Excellent info and layout. Looks like a lot more real life data then a bunch of paper punchers. Anyways, I'm looking at buying or building a long range 600yd, light weight elk killer. I love my 7mm mag custom, 168 bergers, 70grn retumbo combo but damn thing is over 10lbs. It drops them stone cold dead though. I like the 6.5, 270wsm, 7mmwsm, or 300wsm. Will be running Nosler LR, Bergers, or another frangible bullet.

Thanks in advance for the help

Jake

Replies

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10 Nov 2014 @ 06:41 pm (GMT)	Quote this chris murphy Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? hi Jake the 7mm 0r 300 will do what you want with the right bullet look into the amax bullet or annealed vlds for long stuff and something that would hold together up close should a snap shot present itself sst or nosler partition
10 Nov 2014 @ 08:33 pm (GMT)	Quote this Alvaro Piqueras Alonso-Lamberti Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Hi Jake; I can gave you my opinion... this could help you a little. But the best advice I cna gave you is to get Nathan´s books... If you have found the info here interesting, you will enjoy the books a lot! That said, the 7 or 30 WSM will do the job, but if you go too light, maybe a brake or supressor will help you to tame recoil. Cheers!
10 Nov 2014 @ 08:40 pm (GMT)	Quote this Jim Moseley Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? May look at the 270wsm using the 165 Matrix. Nathan has some info on the Matrix.
12 Nov 2014 @ 07:10 pm (GMT)	Quote this Martin Taylor Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Hi Jake, Depending on how light you want to go you are possibly heading into the light weight, large calibre, that has to be accurate and easy to shoot, trap! Fell into that one a few years ago myself. Alvaro has offered a great piece of advice, Nathans books will give you the insight into poor stock & action/rifle design along with calibre, projectile & optic's. You will be able to choose a combination that will work for your needs. Along with all the info needed to set up and tune the rig, a very small investment that will save you a lot of grief and $.
13 Nov 2014 @ 01:55 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Hi Jake, have a look at the Winchester Extreme if you get a chance. Adnatages are a long magazine (WSM's are not really short), a Bell & Carlson stock and a nice action. Barrel quality tends to be good but with the same chances of a dud as with most brands at the moment (see first book). Have a think about the 208gr A-MAX. You could run this around 2600-2650fps. It will go faster but recoil will effect accuracy. Even at 2600fps, you will need a lot of practice in a light weight rig. But if you want a real hammer, this is certainly a load to consider. In some ways, its kind of like a high BC .358, wounding being very similar. Apart from this, the guys here have made good points. Each have been through projects which help them speak from experience. You're in good hands.
17 Nov 2014 @ 10:34 am (GMT)	Quote this Jake long Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Thanks for all the replies. I am looking at the Remington alaskan, Kimber, or Tikka lite. I have built one gun but think my best bang for my buck is buy a solid gun. Then upgrade as needed starting with a trigger and brake. Speaking of which, I shoot with a brake, love it, but what do you look for when choosing one? Also tape my barrel w/brake with electrical tape, have heard several time it doesn't effect the shot. I haven't noticed a different but has anyone experience a poi change? Will be ordering the book, sounds like a wealth of knowledge. Thanks again If I had my preference I think I would go with the 270 wsm. Might be a hair light for elk at 600 yards. Will sit down and run numbers/graphs/and what not today. Also curious after annealing the bergers if anyone notices a loss of accuracy (poi change)? Does anyone have experience with Nosler Accubound LR bullets? I picked up a couple boxes yesterday to play with. Thanks much Jake
17 Nov 2014 @ 10:36 am (GMT)	Quote this Jake long Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Looking for a gun/scope combo around the 7 lb range.
17 Nov 2014 @ 01:23 pm (GMT)	Quote this chris murphy Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Hi Jake 270wsm may leave you wanting. For steping up .007" in bullet diameter you will have a greater range of bullets to choose from. Also concider mag length I have just sit up a tikka 7wsm 168 vld and seating out to lands was too long for mag easy fix using 7 rem mag mag and shaving sides. Have no poi change or loss of accuracy with annealing vlds
17 Nov 2014 @ 01:25 pm (GMT)	Quote this chris murphy Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? 270wsm will go good if you can get some 165 matrix vlds
19 Nov 2014 @ 11:37 am (GMT)	Quote this Randal Graham Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Anybody else remember when an 8.5 pound rifle was "light"? :0)
19 Nov 2014 @ 08:26 pm (GMT)	Quote this Martin Taylor Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Quote: Anybody else remember when an 8.5 pound rifle was "light"? :0) Yep! I think 7lb is on the light side for any WSM if accuracy at 600 is a big part of your plan. I have a T3 lite in 308 and ended up looking for some weight to make it more user friendly for my son. Nathan will tell you that you need very good technique and be on your game to shoot with weights this low.
20 Nov 2014 @ 03:27 pm (GMT)	Quote this Jake long Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Been reading Nathans' book. Excellent stuff and thanks for the recommendation. I'm leaning harder towards the 270 wsm, 165 matrix combo. It sounds like it would excel at dropping elk at 600 yards here at 7ooo-12,ooo ft. Could be set up around the 7-8lb range and skip installing a brake. Does anyone run this combo? experience, loading advice, ect? Thanks much Jake
27 Nov 2014 @ 09:00 pm (GMT)	Quote this Bryan Webster Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? My oldest son bought the Tikka T3 Lite in 300WSM and now wishes he had listened to me and bought the varmint barrelled version. Wee bit heavier but way more shootable for his practice sessions. I think we will soon be restocking his in a sturdier stock which will help both accuracy and the bit of weight increase may make it more fun to practice with. Also remember that a WSM will have a considerably shortened barrel life compared to say a 300 Winchester Magnum or the 7mm Remington Magnum, both of which I personally prefer over the WSM equipment. I have taken more than a few elk and moose at the ranges that you are talking about with my 7mm Remington Magnum. The major reason people are heading for the WSM chamberings is to save on weight because of the short action yet with pletny of power. That being said, most people do not shoot enough to be able to use them...one of Nathan's comments is that his customers are taught to shoot the heavy recoil rifles. In my experience here in northern BC, guide outfitters often cringe when a client shows up with a heavy recoiling rifle for good reason.
28 Nov 2014 @ 12:04 am (GMT)	Quote this Jake long Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Bryan, thanks for the input. The more I read Nathan's book, the more confused I'm getting. The majority of my hunting is week long backcountry stuff where weight is a major concern. However, if I need to shoot 600 yards I want that option. Thinking a smaller caliber like a 6.5 would give me the range, low recoil, and ability to shoot accurately in a lite weight set up. Then I think about just loading lighter bullets in the 300 wsm to achieve the same concept. I like the 270 wsm but can get a 7 rm for only 3 ounces more. However, according to my reading a lite weight mag is not a good idea. My brain is going to explode. lol Happy thanksgiving everyone Jake
28 Nov 2014 @ 12:57 am (GMT)	Quote this sllindsay Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Hi Jake, I think one of your first considerations is how you handle recoil. Some people are more sensitive and end up sacrificing a lot of accuracy and develop bad flinches with light rifles. In such cases a heavier rifle and/or lower recoiling caliber is better. I do not pack in long distances, but I have physical limitations that I thought would require a light weight rifle. For all that I wanted from it, though, it ended up being fairly heavy. I don't find it a major burden, though, with the peace of mind knowing I can shoot it very well. If you are not recoil sensitive, then a lighter magnum rifle will be more tolerable and thus more accurate in your hands. Go for shootability first and portability second. It does no good to pack it if you can't shoot it well. sl
28 Nov 2014 @ 11:08 am (GMT)	Quote this Randal Graham Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Hi Jake, happy Thanksgiving... I lived out west for quite a while in Alberta and worked for a friend every fall who was an outfitter, something I saw an awfull lot was dissapointment revolving around super light rifles in big slammin calibers, most often .300 win mag and .338 win mag. With all the other stuff that was being hauled in the packs, and being at high elevation, what happened was such heavy deep breathing and constantly stressed muscles led to, frankly, some spectacularly shitty shooting. With the excitement of a big Elk or Sheep coupled with the exhaustion of a hard mountain hike, you could see the 7 pound rifles shake like a leaf as the guy tried to get control of breathing and shakes from burning muscles. Before you go superlight, you can consider overall rifle length first. Two rifles, same weight, but one with a 26 inch barrel, and one with a 20 inch barrel...the handle entirely differently and although the weight is the same, the shorter one over time will "seem" lighter at the end of the day, just from being an easier rifle to handle. Also, you already are at ten pounds on the rifle....so instead of dropping huge weight, you might want to consider just carving off a pound or two to get to the 8 or 8.5 pound range...it will feel way way lighter than your ten pounder without dropping to light to get steady shooting. I found another issue I saw is the gear besides the rifle can be a place to take a carefull look at. A lot of guys, most of us really, tend to haul a lot more shit in our packs that is nessecary on a hunt. Three pounds off the rifle...or maybe three pounds out of the pack...the result will be the same overall. A week long backcountry hunt requires a substantial amount of gear of course, but still, when the hunt is on, what can you do to trim down the gear is a great start. Also, pack itself can be a big big factor. Saw a lot of soft packs or internal frame packs of poor design that tortured the hunters endlessly. A good external frame pack, or a good internal, can make an incredible amount of difference to comfort and energy levels. I tend to external frame packs as it is the best way to haul a heavy rifle as well without it becoming an anchor and something you are fighting with. I could keep my BLR in a soft case and slip it between the bag and the frame, cinch down the bag, and the rifle pretty much dissapeared into the rest of the gear. Slings...i had a split sling, or two strap sling, on my BLR and I could carry it straight up my back like a pack, I liked that alot myself, might be something to look at. I use a shoulder bag instead of a day pack so it worked out. If it's 7 rem mag you already have, pretty hard to beat that for Elk at 600, and also for recoil, already. Perhaps if you stuck with that caliber but went a little lighter on the gun might be a good way to go. The recoil would be a little more, but it'll also be a familiar recoil impulse and I dought if the difference between your 10 pounder, and an 8 pounder in the same caliber, would be something that would bother you too much. Switching to a .300 mag not only comes with "more", but a lot different as well, coupled with a drop in weight The recoil difference will be significant. I found the .300 WAY sharper in recoil than the seven, and both rifles were the same otherwise. Over years of hunting with the BLR, in .30-06, i ended up adding weight to it actually. I found once it passed the 8 pound mark my shooting in the field became significantly more consistant, with the added bonus of huge recoil dampning. I shot open sights and the stock design on the BLR's is a little harsh anyway. It ended up at 8.5 pounds and for me at least, is about as low as I care to go and still have a good steady platform to shoot with after huffin and puffin up and down the hills and mountains out west, or through the brush and rock here in the east. Now personally, I would not think of a .260 or any 6.5 as a suitible caliber for Elk at 500-600 yards, but it is certainly being done. Anyway, i feel your pain of long term backcountry hunting...which is 2% hunting and 98% hauling your shit. :0) A pound you can ditch off your other gear, is a pound you don't have to ditch off the rifle, so I encourage you to look at the entire rig as a whole before you commit to a 7 pound rifle. Also consider shorter as a way to ease the impact of the gun on the hike, as well as lighter. It makes a big diference in handling that I think makes as much or more difference initially than going straight to superlight. Randal
28 Nov 2014 @ 01:35 pm (GMT)	Quote this Jake long Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Sl and Randal, thank you very much for your wisdom. I have a pretty light backpacking setup. Kuiu icon pro pack, sleeping system right at 4.5 lbs, and food dialed. I live in one set of clothing for the most part and carry no creature comforts. Body fat is right at 17% so could maybe shave a little weight but find it helpful when being calorie deficient. Boots are a bit heavy (kenetrek) but love them on those big nasty scree fields and if it dumps a foot or two of snow. I might be able to shave 4-5 ounces on my jetboil stove but that's about it. I like your idea of sticking with the 7mm mag. It has never let me down. Plus, I have all the reloading gear. 8-8.5 lbs sounds like a excellent setup. I agree with you both. Accuracy and shoot ability is more important then wasting a week climbing mtn to miss the one shot you get. I do love armed hiking but what's the point if you cannot shoot it. I will probably add a brake to the gun. I grew up shooting a gun much too big for me so recoil is an issue for me. I have learned to do a couple dry fires that have help immensely. The brake on my 7mm is amazing. My tiny wife even likes to shoot it. Plus, I'm waiting for my tax stamp so I can run a can on it. I always carry earplugs around my neck so the noise isn't a major issue. Plus, I find animals are confused with the noise and often allow for a second or third shot to be put into them if need be. Once, I believe I had bergers pin hole so will try the annealing trick or switch to the matrix/amax. One last thought. 6.5-284 shooting a 142 matrix or 140 berger bullet at 9,ooo-12,ooo ft. It should be very capable of taking a elk @600 yards given only broadside shoots being taken? Would I be giving up too much for the reduced recoil that might not even matter if I run a brake. Never mind, I think I just answered the question. Mind is slowly clearing. 7mm mag, 8.8.5 lbs, 168 matrix What rifle maker would be the best out of the box all weather set up? M700, T3, ....
28 Nov 2014 @ 02:13 pm (GMT)	Quote this Randal Graham Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Hi Jake Cool, sounds like you have a nice rig all around. Man, i know your pain, really easy to get stuck in a circle of analysing things over and over and stuff gets blurry after a while. Suffering a bit from that myself lately with next gun purchase. I think the wsm's are fantastic hunting rounds, as are the old school mags, but when I look at all your factors I think it would be quite hard to do any better than with what you are already shooting. And being set-up for the caliber already eliminates a lot of additional purchases you would have to make on that end....and you would have to, I'll bet you have not hunted with factory ammo in quite some time :0) How about the existing rifle? Ten pounds, so it is heavy...can it loose some weight with a stock change perhaps? Spcope, base, depending on what you have now might be able to peel some weight off there also. Otherwise, same caliber in a 8 pounder with your brake won't be a whole lot worse than what you are shooting now imo. Right now if I were to buy a seven, I think I would be seriously tempted to get a Tikka T3 varmint, or varmint stainless, in 7 rem mag, and swap out the stock for a wood sporter as a personal choice, and with glass it could be kept 8.5 I think. I'm really a lever-head though so that particular illness has to be taken into account with my suggestions :0) Man, brakes...my hat is off to you guys that can shoot with thouse. I have wierd problem with recoil, I'm a bit of a recoil junky...it's the muzzle blast that bothers me. First time I shot with one I was not at all prepared and it shook me to my core and it took the rest of that year to get the flinch (aka nervous twitch) taken care of. Never gotten over it. All this being said I have also seen some guys, and one woman in particular, who shot exceedingly well at longer ranges, with superlight rifles. They put a lot of work into it and were totally dedicated to the rifle with practice as well as technique. The woman was shooting a .300 win mag in a rifle I would guess was 7.5 pounds at the most, lightweight everything on a remingtom mountain rifle. She was a joy to watch, just perfect form everytime. I got a kick out of shooting it but I could not shoot it accurately, too far away from my norm. Where are ya hunting anyway? "Week long back-country" has my curiosity tweaked :0) Most of my Elk Hunting was in the foothills and mountains centered between calgary and edmonton. Sundre Alberta was where I was based from.
28 Nov 2014 @ 04:06 pm (GMT)	Quote this Jake long Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Randal, Live in Colorado (heart of elk country) so tons of options. Been doing some pretty epic trips by Telluride with a muzzleloader for velvet mule deer. Pretty stinking fun and lots of elk in those above tree line hide aways. Problem lyes with no cover and big hikes just to get within the 600 yard range. I use goats to pack into some of that country but sometimes it's just easier to go light and fast. I hunt anywhere from 3-4 different states for elk. Utah, Wyoming, Arizona, Montana, etc. A quick 5 mile hike will generally get you away from all the weekend warriors and into elk. I'm not sure how tags work for foreigners but if you draw a tag let me know. I only work 10 days a month so I could probably tag along. My current 7mm is a Sendero with a HS stock. Upgraded the barrel to 25" Hart medium contour 1:9.5, jewel trigger, larger lug, bedded, all the fixings. Ended up mounting a fairly large scope on it. Vortex 6-25 x 50 FFP and love it but it added a bit of extra weight. Should have fluted the barrel and went with a small scope. I find it very calming to put earplug in before shooting at game with the brake. Really calms my nerves plus I add a couple dry fires and good to go. However, I cannot wait to get my suppressor. Would add a pound to the gun which should aid in control. I like the T3. Will start looking at the different models. Thanks again Jake
28 Nov 2014 @ 04:12 pm (GMT)	Quote this thomas kitchen Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? only thing to watch with the tikka's are magazine length so take your calipers with you to check the load you want will fit. hope you find something that ticks all the right box's
28 Nov 2014 @ 04:22 pm (GMT)	Quote this Randal Graham Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Cool Jake, If things go well hope to be out west for hunting next fall. Most of my hunting was Alberta, B.C., and the Yukon. My U.S. Hunting was all in the midwest, Wisconsin and Iowa mostly, love the whitetail there, a bit ymmier overall than what we have here in N.S. Always wanted to try some hinting in Montana.
28 Nov 2014 @ 10:35 pm (GMT)	Quote this Mike Neeson Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? This has been a great read, thanks all. Winchester Montana Extreme? maybe?... I have heard good things about these. There is nothing worse (or greater) than buying a new rifle. Good luck.
30 Nov 2014 @ 08:47 am (GMT)	Quote this Jake long Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Made an impulse buy last night on Gunbroker.com. Ended up getting a lightly used remington 700 mountain rifle chambered in .270win, 22" barrel, 6.5 lbs for only $680 us. I will play around with the 270 but may just upgrade the barrel and change it to a 7mm. Could have a pretty sweet semi custom rig for $1100. http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/454593000/454593148/pix725270927.jpg
30 Nov 2014 @ 12:50 pm (GMT)	Quote this Randal Graham Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Cool Jake, good old .270 is a pretty solid footing to be on.
30 Nov 2014 @ 03:01 pm (GMT)	Quote this Andy Stewart Re: Best WSM and/or lightweight 600 yd elk slayer? Quote: Bryan, thanks for the input. The more I read Nathan's book, the more confused I'm getting. The majority of my hunting is week long backcountry stuff where weight is a major concern. However, if I need to shoot 600 yards I want that option. Thinking a smaller caliber like a 6.5 would give me the range, low recoil, and ability to shoot accurately in a lite weight set up. Then I think about just loading lighter bullets in the 300 wsm to achieve the same concept. I like the 270 wsm but can get a 7 rm for only 3 ounces more. However, according to my reading a lite weight mag is not a good idea. My brain is going to explode. lol Happy thanksgiving everyone Jake Get fitter, get stronger, carry a rifle of suitable weight for calibre. You want to start shooting animals a long way out ? do it ethically and use heavy high bc bullets- that rules out WSM's. Get a 7mm Mag and learn to deal with the recoil.