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> Load dev - .308 - how high?
Load dev - .308 - how high?
@ 09:27 pm (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsHeya guys.I am developing a load for a .308 700 SPS - Long range target load. I am pushing a 155 Lapua Scenar out of Lapua Brass with Federal 210M Primers and 2208 Powder. I have read that the Scenars need speed - especially as I stretch out further. I have found a band which is giving me good grouping - but it's low FPS. I am now pushing up past the ADI recommended load looking for a higher FPS node. No pressure signs - nothing on the brass, no sticking on the bolt, gun feels fine. Compressed load at this point. Seeing 2985 on the Chrono. Is there anything I need to be aware off going over the published max load? Obviously - I am checking each and every shot for any sign of it being too much - any other pointers? |
Replies
@ 05:49 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?hi kerryi think your on the money. just take it easy (increase .5 grain max) watch for pressure signs flattening of primers etc safety glasses are a must to. be careful not to chase velocity but chase accuracy specially if your only shooting targets to. |
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@ 08:53 am (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Agreed. At this point I am actually just going up by .2 each time. Really not interested in any damage to rifle or myself.I am nearly there - just going to push a little higher to see if it tightens at all. I agree - it's not speed I am really chasing. If I don't see another node shortly, I will just back off and use the lower node. I am sure it will be fine out to further I can probably shoot - then I also have a perfect excuse for another rifle build in around a years time! |
@ 12:53 pm (GMT) |
Mike NeesonRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Have you tried 2206H? My load for my 20" SPS tac was a full grain above ADI's book max - no pressure signs and the same that Nathan uses in his SPS Tac. The ADI manual is VERY conservative. There are so many variables they have to try and account for - including idiots - so they err on the "super safe" side. The rifle will tell you when too much is too much. Pressure signs are just that - signs. Once you get there, then you can back off and you will know your limit for that gun. You will also be able to choose what ever accuracy node you want. I went up in .5's and once I got some sign, backed off. Your rifle will not explode or do damage before you get the signs... you have to go waaay over to do damage. Using 2206h or 2208 the case would nearly have to be over flowing! If you were using pistol powders, that would be a different proposition!Now that I have a new barrel and a new tighter chamber, pressure signs were achieved .5 grain over max, as well as a node in that region, I am now loading my cartridges at "max" book charge for 2206h |
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@ 10:52 pm (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?I currently use the 2206H in my hunting rifle.With the 2208 it's getting to the point where I won't be able to fit much more into the case. Is my .2 change potentially too conservative? I am already a grain above the max. |
@ 11:09 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Hi Kerry, Mike is on the right track with this, he has basically followed my normal steps, same as those given in the reloading book. |
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@ 12:06 am (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?All good. Just confirming I was going drastically wrong... :)Thanks lads. |
@ 10:11 pm (GMT) |
Tyler CampbellRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Hey guys,I am at a point where I have reached the maximum recommended charge of 47.5 grains 2208 with 150 grain SST's. No pressure signs yet. However the case is very full. Once fired lapua brass. Kerry, how are you going about getting so much powder in? What is your COAL? I'm at 2.8 inches, another 1.9mm to the lands and about another 4mm more room in the mag. Should I try seating the projectile out more or just compress the load more? Thanks, |
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@ 10:32 pm (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?2.244 to the Olgave. That's a little over 2.8 COAL - I do want to be able to fit this into an AI mag at some stage soon.Another thought I had - and more knowledgeable people please chime in here - I have been fireforming and only neck sizing - does this also mean I have potentially increased case volume? I am getting the occasional cartridge that is a little harder to chamber - so looking at pushing back the shoulder a little - which I pick could make things a little more compacted in there. I am planning on getting the comparator gauges to confirm - but am I thinking right? What this also mean, if brass life isn't an issue - always full length resizing is going to give me a bit more consistency? |
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@ 05:38 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?hi tyler.you'll find that 2206h might be a better option as you won't need to compress it to get higher velocity (plus less powder works out cheaper). setting depth is normally either bottom of projectile (depends boat tail or not) to bottom of neck of case or to 1mm shorter then mag length depending on which one comes first. kerry yes you have increased volume to a degree you'll find your sweet spot (barrel harmonics etc) will be at a certain pressure so you might need to increase powder charge to get back to same pressure as you had with first reload. the problem with full length sizing is your more likely to throw the neck of centre ( concentricity) which is the opposite to what you need in a 308. i do remember someone on here saying they havent noticed a difference between full length and neck sizing only thou ( might of been martin taylor if not sorry martin) im still got to play around with my 308 more but need to change few things (trigger and stock) so someone more knowledgeable about 308 might give you a lot better advice guys. |
@ 07:10 am (GMT) |
jasonRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?KerryI full length size everything every time. But as little as possible. I take a fire formed case, take a shoulder measurment with the hornady headspace gauge. And actually match that measurment with my die. (I used to bump 2 thou but why they still chamber) My neck concentricity isn't as good as a fired case but run out is fairly low. I can still shoot a one hole group at 100. I just like the idea of case dimensions the same every time. Not changing dimension when I bump back every so often because of rounds getting tight to chamber. I don't want tight rounds. Does that little bump really change a load based on a neck sized case, I don't know and I don't have to worry. The only thing I might change is after sizing to use maybe a neck collet die to do the neck again to maybe try improve run out. And that's only because I have a concentricity gauge, I don't see a problem on paper. But that's the big neck vs full length sizing debate. |
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@ 09:45 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Thanks Thomas for answering these questions concisely. |
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@ 05:01 am (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Awesome read guys. Many thanks.In regards to concentricity - is that where 'floating' dies help - like the Forster? I have picked up a Redding Type S Full Length Sizer with the bushings - and will set it up to only push the shoulder back just a smidge. There is only one .308 I will be using the ammo in. |
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@ 07:22 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?thank you nathan just trying to give back some knowledge i have learnt from here.hi kerry. the "floating" seems to help self align. lee use's a rubber ring to help with this. im not familiar with redding dies only really way to check concentricity is to reload a round and check it on a gauge. i believe your also in auckland? i have a lee ultimate die set in 308 im not currently using if you want to borrow that to see if its makes any difference in group size |
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@ 10:51 pm (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Quote: hi kerry.
the "floating" seems to help self align. lee use's a rubber ring to help with this. im not familiar with redding dies only really way to check concentricity is to reload a round and check it on a gauge. i believe your also in auckland? i have a lee ultimate die set in 308 im not currently using if you want to borrow that to see if its makes any difference in group size Thanks for the offer Thomas. I am. I have the ultimate die set in 7mm08 - and have read online that you can create a similar system with any die by utilising an o'ring between the locking ring and top of press - essentially doing the same as the lee, without the groove in the ring for the o'ring. To be fair, it's more my shooting that is causing variation with group sizing - and I really need to get a concentricity gauge if I really want to start experimenting here. Hell - as they say, it's all under minute of deer! |
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@ 08:18 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?know worries just let me know if you want to give them ago.have you done any bedding on this rifle? was also wondering what press your using had look at couple of your video's and saw turret press in them? i now the feeling i put high magnification scope on my gun and it doesn't really install confidence in my shooting ability with cross hairs moving all over the show, looking forwards to this next book. |
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@ 07:52 pm (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?The stock is stabilised and I have Nathan's Bedding Kit, just need to find the time.I have a 550 for pistol and a Lee Classic for rifle - though I have actually been using Wilson Hand Dies for the .308 up to this point. Always keen to learn more. Just need more time to dedicate to it! ;) |
@ 11:17 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Yes that's a spot on quote Thomas, I get great results F/L sizing on all my calibres.l have been messing around with many calibres and die brands including Redding (s type), Rcbs. Lee std & ultimate and new generation Hornady. F/L sizing with the absolute minimum shoulder bump (set up exactly as Jason has said) to just take away the stiff bolt closure feel, l have repeatable & extremely accurate rounds. I don’t target shoot as such or have custom barrels etc. I have just finished some repeat testing yesterday on my two 308's and seen no real improvement with neck sizing alone, that is with 3 different die brands using Lapua and Whin brass. Both are factory rifles set up using Nathans instructions and are .5 moa without fuss loaded to coal of 71mm to fit the Std spec mags. I don’t have a concentricity gauge, probably should, just don’t see the need yet. Two notes to offer: All my neck broaches are slightly reduced in size to increase neck tension by approx. 3thou as Nathan explains in his reloading book. And my 300 win mag only has S type Redding dies that neck size with the same bushing either way. With its short neck groups can improve by .1 possibly .2moa with neck sizing, but l hate tight chambering rounds in my rifles (all hunting rigs) so l will live with the small change and the rifle shoots better than me most field trips anyway…… hahahahaaa |
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@ 06:21 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?hmm more time to work on guns that would be nice and a personal 1km range. if only i could win lotto without buying a ticket ha ha.this is making very interesting reading. one thing that popped in between my ears today was is anyone was finding different accuracy between the 150gr and 168gr plus projectiles? would the longer projectiles be guided better as more time in the neck? less jump? i understand the the neck opens almost instantly |
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@ 06:51 am (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?So popped into a local gun store today, in order to pick up a Hornady Headspace Gauge, which I asked for, by name.After pointing out, that no, I didn't need the OAL Gauge, I wanted to measure headspace, and what I wanted it for, I was asked if I had trimmed my brass recently. I was planning on trimming the length after I have FLR/bumped the shoulder - but would firing the brass four times and only neck sizing be enough to cause the neck to lengthen and give me the chambering issues I have described? |
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@ 08:59 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?hi kerry.i trim after every firing, you have to be careful to check your brass length as if it stretches to much it'll end up in the throat of your chamber which will pinch projectile tightly causing massive pressure spikes. i find the lee case length gauge are perfect for this task easy to use and cheap. go see the boys at reloaders supplies they'll help you out. 
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@ 06:52 pm (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?i should explain that better.after i run my brass through a collet die or F/L die i always run a lee length gauge through it, most of the time it either take none off or very little but it keeps it consistent. in your reloading manual you'll see a trim length you'll need to check your brass with your calipers, and then trim it if its longer then the given measurement. i have wondered if you could check your chamber length and let your brass grow on a short neck caliber like 300 win mag but that's a discussion for another day |
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@ 09:47 pm (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Thomas l have had sub .5moa loads in my Rem 308 with (2) 125 bt, 150 sp fb, many different 168 & 180 grain pills same as in my 06.Seating near the lands is normally an easy way to gain accuracy but not always. My 308's have never been loaded past 71mm coal the 125's from memory where under 70mm, so they have all had space walks to get to the lands. I once tried working my 168gn Berger load away from the lands in my 06, starting at my good load @15 thou (.5moa) and jumping in steps out to 100 thou. The groups opened out to 1.2moa and then came right back down at 80 thou jump. Seating depth and powder changes go hand in hand but this simple test showed the harmonic/pressure/timing changes and there effect on accuracy. These are just some of the variables and why l hate people listing a good load or bloody accurate load for others. Your particular rifle/reloading combo will like what it likes, yes you will see trends or averages but they are as individual as you and l. And 4 firings with no trimming would have to be on the borderline depending on brass, l have had new brass that needs trimming after one firing. |
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@ 10:44 pm (GMT) |
Kerry AdamsRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?Fantastic guys! Learning so much - many, many thanks for it.Looks like it's a comparator and a trimming station! I have always know that you would need to trim on full length resizing, but for some reason never made the connection on neck resizing. I guess the brass is still 'growing' regardless. |
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@ 04:46 am (GMT) |
Martin TaylorRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?You are correct Kerry, neck sizing is kinder on the brass, not working it as much as F/L sizing and yes they don't grow as much.You are using good brass which is very uniform so you have made a good choice there, others are not as good with their factory tolerances. Just buy the Lee trimmer as already said, cheap, effective and easy to use and quickly swaps out to other calibres. Do you have Nathans reloading book? It is very detailed on all of these questions and as per usual, in his straight up, no BS style. l still refer back too it often! |
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@ 09:11 am (GMT) |
Thomas KitchenRe: Load dev - .308 - how high?i have a lee trimmer set up for each caliber they really are cheap. i put lock stud in drill run gauge/trimmer just to check then chambfer with it still in drill.i suggest going to reloaders all the guys there are very helpful, Dan will help you out if your not sure what your after. Do you have Nathans reloading book? It is very detailed on all of these questions and as per usual, in his straight up, no BS style. l still refer back too it often! best advice you can get there. i refer to it all the time. |
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