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> First Focal Plane
First Focal Plane
@ 09:53 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayHi all just wanted a show of hands from those who use FFP scopes and in what contexts?I imagine target shooters would be fans of them... (?) |
Replies
@ 04:46 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: First Focal Plane1. not as useful for hunting however2. at low power the crosshairs are so small in even decent light they can be hard to see. Do not need that. 3. I use a rangefinder and do not do holdovers so dial in shots if past 300 yards so why use ffp at all. 4. They charge a lot more and I tend to think a lot of it is marketing hype however it is of a lot of use to paper punchers and competition shooters which is where most persons defend their choice of ffp. 5. Many ffp scopes do not have as much elevation adjustment room if that is of importance to your decision. (see the Sightron SIII scopes in FFP for example. I would rather have the 100 MOA range of adjustment myself. Lots of other ideas but those are the main ones. |
@ 05:13 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: First Focal PlaneOK, now I'm really confused. I've wrestled with this concept ever since I read the section in the LR Shooting book (p98). I've even sat at the range and drawn sketches of my sight picture hoping to figure it out. Maybe one of the lads here can help me. I'll tell you what I think, and you tell me if I am right or if I have it backwards.The scope in question is a Leupold VX-lll L, 3.5-10X50mm. It has the duplex reticle, and Leupold says that it can be used as a range indicator. The theory is that the spacing between the thick sections of the reticle denotes a given distance. They say it is 18" at 100yds. So, being the skeptic that I am, I print out a grid and nail it up at 100 and 200 meters. I then zoom in and out, recording how much of the grid fits into the reticle spacing. Results: 3.5X @ 100m = 8"; 6X @ 100m = 6"; 10X @ 100m =3"; 3.5X @ 200m = 14"; 6X @200m = 12"; 10X @ 200m = 8". Note: these grid measurements are from the horizontal crosshair up to the bottom of the top duplex in the reticle. This is where my confusion comes in. The reticle never changes it's size. Now, maybe I am misunderstanding Nathan's comment about this. Does the reticle actually change in dimension, or does it just appear that way in the sight picture? Please help. My brain hurts. |
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@ 05:14 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: First Focal PlaneNever finished my question: so is this scope FFP or SFP? My thought was that it was FFP. |
@ 06:31 pm (GMT) |
Chris MurphyRe: First Focal PlanePaul your scope is a sfp and leupold make the space between cross and post the height of an average deer. So on the magnification ring it has two numbers the power setting and a distance in yards.So find your deer adjust scope power till the deer is the height of the retical and see what range that roughly equates to. Ffp the retical stays the same size as target so when you zoom you target and retical magnify. Sfp retical does not change you target will only magnify when you zoom Hope this helps |
@ 06:47 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: First Focal PlaneHeck, you are on the ball this morning Chris.As Chris said Paul, yours is SFP. 3" is the norm for a Leupold Duplex, center crosshair to post. The system is not entirely accurate as a range finder when hunting. It is at its most useful when you simply use the upper post as an inidcator of how high the bullet will strike at 100 to 150 yards if you are set to shoot 3" high at 100 yards. But realistically it is good to get past this need for a hold point and adopt very slight hold under or hold over using the crosshair, unless deliberately head head shooting. Yours can be dialed in to shoot long even though it does not have turrets. But the clicks are most likely inches, not MOA, so there will be some error, noticeable at say 500 yards and beyond. The windage posts can be used for wind drift as per the shooting book. After market target elevation turrets are available for this scope. But again, one must check whether the result is Inches or MOA and then calibrate accordingly. |
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@ 07:01 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: First Focal PlaneThanks, Chris. I think what got me confused is that apparently I had never had a FFP scope, so I didn't realize the crosshairs actually enlarged. Yes, that makes way more sense now.As to the second set of numbers, yes they are a good reference, but very inconvenient to use. You sight, then check, then sight again. I found it easier just to know your target size and mentally compute it. So Andrew, I guess I use an SFP for hunting. My target scopes are non-adjustable (single power), which would mean they could be either. Not much help to your question in any case. |
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@ 07:59 pm (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: First Focal PlaneAndrew, please take note of Bryans post, he has made some good con points.I use both and have friends that prefer milradian only- but it pays to take what Bryan has said into consideration. |
@ 07:03 am (GMT) |
Mike NeesonRe: First Focal PlaneAndrew, pretty much what Bryan said. My friend and I both bought Sightrons LRMD/CM, he got the FFP and after looking through his, I got the SFP. The reticle is very fine at low magnification and I imagined putting that on a dark animal in low light and I'd really be struggling to see it. I have the MIL dot reticle and MIL movements... they make more sense to me 1cm at 100m and all the ranges I shoot at are in metres - much like yours I presume and I have my range finder set to output in metres too. And my drop charts in metres... and my topomaps in metres... and my car in kilometres... well... you get the picture. |
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@ 07:07 am (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: First Focal PlaneMan I've been so smashed lately with assignments, I've forgotten which way is up!Cheers for the replies all, as mentioned previously, I'm pretty keen on mils over moa in terms of reticle and I'd like to think that I can be hunting animals more than punching paper, but the reality is I'm going to be poking holes at the range rather than hauling meat back to the ute. SFP sounds pretty good for the most part and then at lower magnifications I can just do the math and adjust accordingly. Speaking of the range, I went down today and when I mentioned what I wanted to do was met with "That's not going to happen" "You can't have a hunting and target rifle as one in the same". Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough? I figure that practicing at the range for long range hunting means that you want to be able to put a bullet in a small group at 900yds. If I'm going to be good enough to take a living animal at that range (although prelim drop charts look like a real limit is closer to 700-750 for .308) Then surely I've got to be able to do it at a range right? A lot of F-class shooters with some very expensive looking rifles and some rests that looked even more expensive. But the guys there were friendly enough... |
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@ 06:27 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: First Focal PlaneAndrew, it takes a lot of shooting, patience and careful thought to gain the experience to make the long shots consistently. It is all part of the enjoyment of this hobby and is rewarding. Punching paper and banging steel can be a useful part of all this, so even if others using pricey target rifles and pricey scopes are doubtful, I have taken some of those types to the cleaners on the odd bet many times with lesser equipment than they were shooting.Once you do your load workups and have all your equipment ready, just go ahead and see what you can do. If possible take a long range shooting school class, and shoot a lot. It will come to you, and reading Nathan's books along with your enthusiasm on this site, you will find those long shots coming better but it does take experience. Enjoy. |
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@ 07:29 pm (GMT) |
Andrew MurrayRe: First Focal PlaneCheers Bryan,I appreciate the encouragement. I got the impression from the guys at the range, as nice as they were, that they had a very narrow view on long range shooting. As if F-Class was the only way you could make decent shots at that range count, or if you were shooting open, that you needed to have some kind of custom built rifle or you shouldn't bother. I'd very much like to be the guy that rocks up with technique rather than equipment, to some degree, I'm not expecting miracles. But I do expect to be the best I can be, and I know that's gunna take time, and money, but I think I've caught some kind of disease that won't let me stop until I'm beating guys with rests just shooting prone over a bag :D |
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@ 03:15 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: First Focal PlaneI have found that many competition shooters and that includes the Class ones, get to be very good at reading wind which is one of the biggest issues in long range shooting. You can learn a lot from them. |
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