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Knife

12 Feb 2014
@ 01:00 am (GMT)

Michael Neeson

Just looking for some advice on getting a knife. Is a gut hook recommended, what about size and steel grade? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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12 Feb 2014 @ 03:50 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Knife Hi Mike, I guess we each have our own views on this. Nevertheless, when clients come for a tutorial with me, they are given a hunting kit list and on this list I am very clear about the client bringing a fixed blade knife of a good length on a hip sheath. Prior to the long range tutorials, we used to run straight guided hunts and back then we had a couple of incidences where the clients shot pigs, struck just above the spine (lights out) only to have the pig come to life and attempt a charge as we approached to within a yard or two. Actually this happened again not long ago, the shot was only 300 yards but it was a small porker pig, very difficult shot for the client on the last day and although it had nothing to do with the long range work, the porker was in good nick, perfect for the table. Anyway, this little pig went postal we got to the poor thing, a vicious and couragous attack. I finished the porker with a knife. I had great respect for the little fellow after all was said and done- how could you not. So, here are my requirements: Blade length 6-7" for stabbing (up to the size of wild cattle) Spine about 4-6mm thick for camp chores including breaking down spine on hanging game if I have no access to saw (use heft / weight of knife). Bowie shape due to point shape which stays sharp more naturally than others. My uses: Stabbing. Skinning, boning out. break length of spine if need be. Cutting up food in camp, dicing goat for curry, slice onions etc. If on a long haul (not tutorials) and weather is getting us down, knife is used to split kindling to make fire (we don't normally have a fire when on deerstalking trips due to smoke eddying etc). I don't really get into gut hooks. Some clients use them. I get quite pissed if a client brings a folder, then cannot find it in his day bag when we are on the hill...."I must have left it at the hut". The knife should stay on your body- on a belt. If you look at AJ's photos in the Wound data base, you will see he uses a full length Buck Bowie knife which to me is a good standard knife, the temper is such that the knife is not brittle. AJ can use the long blade for defense (Bear) should a wounded animal be playing possum and come to life. A lot of folk think this sort of thing never happens but it does. It may not be as glamorous as the old Tarzan movies- dancing around like a heading dog, trying to get your boot on the neck of some enraged animal or in the case of pigs, grab a rear leg. I am using a Riflebird bowie knife made for me by Warrick Edmonds in Oz. Warrick posts here on occasion. I would have put up a banner advert for him but knife making is like a lot of things, once you get good at it, you get swamped with work and having an advert running, attracting even more customers is not ideal when you are pouring hours into each individual knife and trying to focus on one customer at a time. My knife is made of 52100 carbon steel and is RC 62 but not brittle due to the qualities of the steel. In other words, it can take an edge and hold that edge for a very long time. I use it for everything including basic home kill. Did a mutton last week. Stainless or carbon makes no difference to me as long as the steel has desirable qualities. I don't like the modern stainless meat works knives. If going for a works knife, I would rather have manganese / carbon steel. These were retired from the meat works due to the potential for rust (possibly porosity versus pathogens, who the hell knows, PC bollocks). The stainless ones don't hold an edge the same (great for RSI). Green river are about the only company still making the original works knives (now for farmers). The Green River Hunter is a bowie. Its not a hacking knife but good otherwise. I clean carbon steel knives with scotchbrite.
12 Feb 2014 @ 11:06 pm (GMT)	Quote this Michael Neeson Re: Knife Thanks Nathan, very thorough thinking - as I have come to expect. I had always wondered why the new butcher knives weren't quite the same as my Dad's knives. I can see why now. I have been eyeing up Anza knives for a while. they're made from file blanks - high carbon steel and tempered by the knife maker to make sure they're not brittle. Nice thick Tangs and they're renound for holding an edge... anyway just got despatched on a job... gotta go... Thanks
13 Feb 2014 @ 02:59 am (GMT)	Quote this Michael Neeson Re: Knife I'll take a look at Green River and some other "Local Stuff". Cheers
13 Feb 2014 @ 04:42 am (GMT)	Quote this jason brown Re: Knife the last knife I got was a buck, its fixed skinner kind of shape with a gut hook. the gut hook is ok, but more of a novelty I feel, you loose nothing from putting your fingers under the blade and running it up the gut. I havnt found the ideal knife yet, im starting to think its like the ideal woman. I started with the meat works kind of skinner, to this buck, which is much the same, now to a basic drop point. the skinners skin well, but not great at trying to get around the ass of an animal, or bone out. I have a boning knife at home for if the animal is brought back whole. otherwise I was thinking if there is no ideal knife I need to take two, a second as a back up and smaller which could help with the ass and boning. I havnt done any where near the amount of animals as Nathan, maybe I will try the bowie too.
13 Feb 2014 @ 04:18 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Knife My Rifle bird:
13 Feb 2014 @ 04:32 pm (GMT)	Quote this Bob Mavin Re: Knife G’day Fella’s Good luck with finding the perfect knife! I mainly use a Green River carbon steel #RH 2415 belt blade from Jantz supply, nothing flash about it, holds a good edge, skins well, it’s best skinning, meat recovery knife, compromise I have . I wear it on my left hip and a heavy 6” Bowie on my right for the rough stuff. I don’t gut Deer, goats etc, I skin as I bag the meat and put it in my backpack. I cut the back legs starting from inside the groin, boning out the pelvis, taking leg & rump in one piece. Take the back straps, shoulders, trim off the carcase for mince. I also like to take the neck off Deer (little pruning saw), cut it into rosettes at home for curries etc. If I’m bringing back whole carcasses (with the 4x4) I use a 6” Green River carbon steel #RH2317 boner, better for doing bum holes and a Green River carbon steel sheep skinner, in a double nylex butchers scabbard. I make my knife sheaths from Kydex, great stuff, warm it up in the oven ( don’t tell the missus), wrap it around the knife and squash it between two bits of hi density foam, trim to shape. Light, strong and creates a mechanical lock to keep the knife from falling out. A 400mm long piece of 2” canvas water hose, cord loop on one end to kook it on a branch or my pack as a razor strop, impregnated with cutting compound. Cheers Bob
13 Feb 2014 @ 10:51 pm (GMT)	Quote this Warrick Edmonds Re: Knife I couldn't agree more with Nathan re folders. They're great for cleaning the dirt from under fingernails and trimming the end of your cigar. I can't go into all there is about knives here, cause I'd be typing for a few weeks. Just a few major points to consider; The thing about steels is that technology has moved on considerably and as we speak, and despite what some may say, there is virtually no difference in edge holding between high end stainless and high end carbon. Its a different matter down the bottom of the market where crap steels from the subcontinent or asia predominate. Price can be a guide. For example, good steels cost from $100Aust to $1500Aust per metre. If you're paying fifteen bucks for a knife, well... Carbon steel does allow a good knife maker to explore the art of heat treating. By that I mean he can produce a very hard cutting edge with a soft and springing spine. Tricky to do but glorious to behold. Either stainless or carbon can be cryo treated. That is, after normal Heat Treating it is dipped in liquid nitrogen for a couple of hours. This imbricates the crystals and affects the carbides on the cutting edge, making for greater wear resistance. If you know in your heart you might not look after the knife as you would a rifle barrel, then go for high quality stainless. If you know a good knife maker who can get the most out of heat treating then get carbon. Once you have your steel its personal preference re shape. I happen to like a fine, precise blade whereas Nathan enjoys a big, tough one. Its nothing more than the blade that best suits your style. There is no secret formula or such a thing as a perfect knife. It's like a tool box. You don't have one tool to do all the work around a car engine, why would you expect a single knife to do every cutting job. Personally I go for one big one and one smaller one. Nine times out of ten the smaller one does all the odd jobs around camp like cutting open the noodles packets and slicing the cheese. I usually point out to my customers that if you use a fine bladed skinner to cut tent pegs from saplings then you're the tool. Pushing the analagy of the tool box, get the right one for the right job. I'll repeat, I've seen many knives from many makers over the last couple of decades and no one single knife will do it all. Note that steel is heavy and a thick, long blade will stack on weight very quickly. If stalking is walking, then you don't want that man sized bowie taking up all your mind space cause it's weighing you down. I have to shoot, pick the kids up from school, if anyone has any specific questions post them here and I'll answer when I get home. Warrick
13 Feb 2014 @ 11:16 pm (GMT)	Quote this Michael Neeson Re: Knife The rifle bird is glorious... but alas too far from what my budget will allow. Thank you Warren for explaining the differences in "real steel". Once again Bob, great contribution. I am thinking I may go down the Green River path and carry 2 with maybe a smallish machete/hatchet for big chop chop stuff. Still not sure. If I go on what Warren said about prices of steel, then maybe Green River is not the way to go? As usual, the more you delve into a subject, the more it widens before you... all I wanted was a good knife... and now I have all this study to do! Steel has always fascinated me and it's good to finally start getting to grips with it. So Warren, you state "if you know a good knife maker... then get carbon". Would you consider Green River knives to be well made... in a functional utility kind of fashion - they certainly don't look the goods but is the steel up to snuff or am I barking up the wrong tree? My budget will only go to about $150... before I wear the wrath of the "minister for war and finance" Sorry for the rambling... I'm typing as I think - prob not the most coherent way to communicate.
14 Feb 2014 @ 01:15 am (GMT)	Quote this Warrick Edmonds Re: Knife Michael In answer to your question, there's nothing wrong with Green River knives. They fall into the catagory of honest tradsman's tools that will do the job. The good thing about them is its not the end of the world if you loose it and the price allows you to have more than one on hand. They're also fairly light weight so carry is not an issue. It's probably not my place to recommend one brand over another on Nathan's forum and also, its a loose / loose thing to do anyway because its essentially a qualitative judgement that will without doubt ferment an argument from someone who belives the exact opposite. re the steel thing. You can very much tell the difference between a good steel and the rest. But its true, the price point can be substantial. That's the way of the world. Warrick
14 Feb 2014 @ 05:36 am (GMT)	Quote this Michael Neeson Re: Knife Thanks Warren. I will get some green river blades and use them to find out what I like and don't like. Bob, that strop idea is genius. Cheers.
16 Feb 2014 @ 05:55 am (GMT)	Quote this Michael Neeson Re: Knife One last question. What do you guys recommend for protecting the carbon blades from corrosion? I was thinking lanolin spray like Lanox or Inox?
16 Feb 2014 @ 03:05 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Knife Yes, lanolin based protective coatings are a good idea. If tainting is a worry, use olive oil etc.
16 Feb 2014 @ 11:39 pm (GMT)	Quote this jason brown Re: Knife you wouldn't call the rifle bird a bowie would you? well after the recent posts I almost feel better about feeling I need to carry two knives. I can grasp the idea of the tool box. in makes sense, just like a rifle to do everything. or using a d8 bulldozer to burry your cat.
17 Feb 2014 @ 03:02 pm (GMT)	Quote this Nathan Foster Re: Knife The curvature at the spine is very subtle on this knife but it is still a bowie. It is similar to the old Tramontina bowies, gosh thats going back a ways. Next week I have to do another sheep for the mother in law's 70th. I will bone it right out, roll and stuff everything. Will use the Riflebird for the entire job. If it were a rifle it would be my one gun rig because I expect it to do everything. I am using this knife for all jobs apart from filleting fish. I don't use multiple knives on the hill, only at home (vegetable knife etc). Thats just the way I do things. Doesn't mean I am a dab hand with a knife. Just means that I have never given it too much thought. I used a 7" Kuhkri exclusively for about 2 years- that was not ideal for multiple chores and it hurt my wrists if I had to stab because the shape was all wrong. But I got used to it and utilized it for hill work without fuss. I have carried two knives in the past, just for kicks once in a while. It depends on how far you are walking. I wouldn't take two sheath knives pack hunting. I know some folk carry a folding saw. Handy for carcass work. Some folk carry a folding Mercator as an ultra light weight back up which is a good idea. That said, if memory serves, the last Mercator I saw had a cheap looking stainless blade- I can't fully remember now. The original Mercator was a very good compact folder for certain chores including head skinning. AJ carries a knife with removable razor blades for head skinning etc. He does a fine job with that tool, far better than I could ever do.
17 Feb 2014 @ 04:32 pm (GMT)	Quote this Martin Taylor Re: Knife Have been watching this thread and it's intersting to see what people like to use! It is a very a personal peferance, l carry a 4" bladed Rehbock steel drop point, with an antler handle (great grip) on my hip at all times, holds an edge like no other knife l know. l have found longer blades a bit much to wield but if we had bears and such l would re-think that! Just fornd that it balances well in the hand. ln my pack l have a roll with a stainless Victorinox curved boning & small filleting knives to take capes of with and some sharpening gear! Over kill l geuss but it works for me!
17 Feb 2014 @ 08:11 pm (GMT)	Quote this Warrick Edmonds Re: Knife Quote: One last question. What do you guys recommend for protecting the carbon blades from corrosion? I was thinking lanolin spray like Lanox or Inox? Michael Carbon steel will discolour with use, it will get a grey, blotchy patina unless you scrub the hide off the knife each evening. This is not a downside at all, the patina will not affect the steel in any meaningful way other than aesthetics. Some people like the character of the patina, I certainly do. But patina is different from rust. Carbon steel needs to be treated with the same respect you give your rifle barrel. Salty blood will promote rust if left on the blade after use. cheers Warrick
17 Feb 2014 @ 10:41 pm (GMT)	Quote this jason brown Re: Knife I didn't mean it in a bad way, I just don't know what defines a bowie knife. the curvature you speak of is curving up correct?
18 Feb 2014 @ 01:17 am (GMT)	Quote this John Smith Re: Knife Nathan, How could I obtain a Riflebird bowie knife like in the photo?
18 Feb 2014 @ 01:24 am (GMT)	Quote this John Smith Re: Knife Hi Warrick, I guess I should have sent the question to you. How would I go about buying a knife made by you as in the photo Nathan posted? I live in the state of Washington, USA.
18 Feb 2014 @ 06:25 pm (GMT)	Quote this Warrick Edmonds Re: Knife John Smith I'm a novice hunter and a reasonable target shooter so when I discovered Nathan's website, it was a real eye-opener. He put so much hard earned information out there, freely available I wanted to do something in return. I contacted him and we colaborated on a knife design, trying out a few experiments in handle shape and blade hardness. Essentially he's been field testing these over the last six months or so and been kind enough to send me emails with comments about what works and more importantly, what doesn't. I built the lessons into the next gen design and took some examples to the Australian Knife Show last November, where they sold out first day. Funny thing was, prompted by a discussion with a customer at the knife show I asked around twenty other custom makers if they'd ever made a knife for themselves and none of them had. So when I got home I made a shorter version of Nathan's knife for myself. Nathan's knife has a blade length of 6.5 inches, should have been 7.5, but I didn't fully grasp his needs when I made it. The steel is quite hard at RC=61.9 with cryo-treatment. This is hard, and would be the kiss of death for lesser steels, making them brittle on the cutting edge, but the knife is made from 52100 (high end carbon) which can take this hardness in its stride. The extra hardness has been a real plus, allows a good edge to last longer. I needed to round off a few corners on the butt where I'd put a few sculpted edges for looks, but otherwise it seems to be a good tool. I made mine out of crucible stainless, CPMS35VN, hardened to RC=61. I live in Adelaide, South Australia and work as an author, geologist and part time knife maker. I have my own website, Riflebirdknives, which you can Google. There's a contact page there. That being said, the reason I'm posting is to answer any questions readers might have (other than about brands of knives), freely, in the spirit of Nathan. Warrick
18 Feb 2014 @ 06:46 pm (GMT)	Quote this Alvaro Piqueras Alonso-Lamberti Re: Knife Hi all; After years being round here learning and asking questions, it´s a good time to put some help/opinion here! First of all, I have to say that Warrick´s knives are absolutely awesome! Nice work! I also do knives, but nothing to compare with yours! I want to share with you some information. There are a brand of small knives, made in sweden, that i found very usefoul. It´s cheap and really works. But it isn´t a piece of art: the craftline series of MORAKNIV. "Allround knife with double-moulded ergonomically designed handle. High friction grip. Blade of Swedish stainless steel hardened to 59-60 RC.". The stainless blade is rust resistant, and you don´t have to worry about the handle. It have a really good grip, and you can tear a hole a put a piece of rope in it. I attache a photo of two of mines, one is the stainless, the other a smaller carbon steel. Both have rigid plastic case to fit in a belt. I purchase each for less than 9 euros ($14US?). Here is the link: http://www.moraofsweden.se/morakniv/craftline-highq-allround-rostfri-50.0.135.2 Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AiHD5CmVg1A The other is the EKA swingblade... I have no experience with that, but I´m thinking on get one. See the webpage http://www.eka-knivar.se/en/products/2/hunting or this Kristoffer Klausen video (Kristoffer has really nice videos on the net) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq1CsK3FHJc As I mentioned, i do some knives. Here are two examples. This is called "nordic" knive, referring to the classic knives used in northern europe. I really like the shape. I used mostly LAURI blades, cause they are cheap and i learn how to make knives without spending much money. Good carbon steel, but also SS. You can see a Helle SS blade, which i like a lot. Good for a skinner knive project. The examples are mounted in red deer antler. Hope this helps!
19 Feb 2014 @ 12:13 am (GMT)	Quote this John Smith Re: Knife Hello Nathan and Warrick, I tried sending an E-mail to [email protected] and got a failure notice. My message was about getting an estimate of the cost of duplicating your knife, but with a camatillo handle and a plain leather sheath. Would this message serve that purpose? Or should I use a different E-mail address?
19 Feb 2014 @ 12:52 am (GMT)	Quote this Warrick Edmonds Re: Knife John I just went and ran a test email from my Riflebirdknives contacts page and it came through ok. I note the spelling of riflebirdknives in your post is not correct, possibly that might be the issue,...needs to be a 'bird' in there between rifle and knives. I think it would be best to conduct this conversation away from Nathan's site. cheers Warrick
19 Feb 2014 @ 11:28 pm (GMT)	Quote this faulkner Re: Knife This has been a great read and informative! Our house has been changing over to "knifes of Alaska" we have a couple with the D2 tool steel and I am amazed at the edge they hold. The the little caping knife which is 440-c also has been great, I used one to cape out 2 bears all four paws and toes (really hard on knifes) and faces with only the quickest of edge touch ups. They aren't cheer, but they aren't over priced either. The buck's that I have had have also been good and the warranty was also great, its didn't fully cover "my stupid" but they went the extra mile. Thanks everyone for the info and pictures, Warrick your customs are amazing!! Aj
20 Feb 2014 @ 01:55 am (GMT)	Quote this deerndingo Re: Knife Hi Al, I haven't used all the brands of knives and I haven't used all the types of steel either, but I have used S30V and D2. I found that with D2 it comes down to how well it is heat treated. My Cold Steel Master Hunter holds on to its edge with a locked on grip. I use it as a camp knife, bush knife and hunting knife. I have a folder in S30V that holds an edge better than most, sharpens in an instant and gets an edge tooooo sharp. You can buy one of the Cabela knives in S30V froim Abelas . I'm tempted to buy the knives of Alask one from there.