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> Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Dangerous Game Shot Placement
@ 08:16 am (GMT) |
John D. Hays - New MexicoHi, I found this trenchant comment on a YouTube video. I don't know Mr. Syverson, but found it more interesting than the video he was commenting on:Bear Attack Shot Placement -- Scott Syverson – March 2018 Bears, in all three North American species, are highly robust due to the oxygenation capacities of their blood. These bears can persist in an attack for greater than sixty seconds after their heart and lungs have been destroyed before they start to experience onset of central nervous system failure from oxygen starvation. This is why the statistics skewed handgun repulsion as being less effective. There is a period of time in which the animal may be terminally dead via cessation of circulation, but they're in waning residual oxygenation consumption allowing them to reach and maul their subjects before feeling the effects of bullet damage if the primary effect of pain did not terminate the attack. A bear does not need a pulse to maul you. Only central nervous system damage by a bullet will immediately stop an attacking charge, followed by a lesser degree of skeletal damage. So bullet placement is critical, the most desirous is a bullet to the head. This is also why the statistics skew in that gun defense required four shots on average. What is missing is a cause and effect relationship. Did the first bullet do the job of destroying heart/lung/circulation and the remaining shots added no additional damage? Is the average of four shots due to the fact that in the 60 seconds of residual oxygenation reserve before reserves were consumed a shooter can get off multiple shots? The statistics presented cannot address this and may be misleading. This goes to your strategy of effectively using a gun. By choosing and practicing to shoot center mass for soft tissue destruction of heart/lungs you may by design giving a bear sixty seconds to do what they want with you. I recommend practicing for bullet placement in the head. First, a bear charging is a straight-at-you affair with the head in the center mass column but usually higher in that column. If you miss high and the charging animal is coming downhill, you have a chance of striking the spine in the rear sections immobilizing the animal instantly. Wrong bullet selection of soft lead may not have the penetrative powers of hard case bullets, but this is not what headshots deliver. The goal is to transfer kinetic energy to the central nervous system core. No animal, bears withstanding, have any particular hardening or hardiness against powerful blows to the brain. If your shot placement is offline horizontally, you stand a good chance of busting a shoulder or more hopefully destroying a sensory organ in the head like an eye, ear, or nose, all of which will have a much greater probability of disrupting a charge. Again, this is why pepper sprays are more effect - the attack strategy is to disrupt a bear's sensory suite and thus its ability to execute an attack. This is also why Alaskan guides carry short-barrel shotguns with a mix of slugs and 00 buck shot. The goal is to tear up a bear’s face and head, and thus its sensory suite to disrupt attacks along with heavy slugs to break the skeleton, rather than selecting for soft tissue heart/lung damage as a means to stop attacks. Headshots, shots higher in the centerline rather than center mass targeting create a totally different result pattern. All this is a long-winded way of saying that the statistics quoted can be highly misleading because guns were employed in the wrong way by most people working under the presumption of center mass targeting against a bear, whose anatomical properties are not the same as humans. The human central nervous system, due to our highly developed brain is extremely susceptible to oxygen disruption and exsanguination. This is what informs most shooters and their shooting strategies. A bears is not sensitive to this, so different shooting strategies will yield much different results. Scott Syverson – March 2018 Comments on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlaJsnEzjNE |
Replies
@ 07:02 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Dangerous Game Shot Placementhttps://everythinggp.com/article/533911/bear-encounter-sparks-learning-opportunityShe dropped her can of bear spray after falling off the road bed. Panic! Luckily her partner has survival instincts. https://everythinggp.com/article/536950/aggressive-grizzly-spotted-southwest-grande-prairie Bear spray fails. http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/grizzly-digs-up-black-bear-den-attacks-sow-and-her-cubs-video/ Whitecourt, AB area, Oct 2018 Not certain how bears would influence one another about the dangers of bear spray when their tolerance for one another is minimal or out right aggressive.. |
@ 04:13 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementThis from the second article"Around noon Monday, a hiker encountered what is being described as an aggressive grizzly bear on the ski trails. Bear spray was used on the animal, but it was undeterred and followed the hiker for about 700 metres as they left the area." It would be interesting to know the details of this statement. How was the spray used? How far was the bear when it was deployed? Weather? Did the user "fall off the road bed"? Was the bear "undeterred" if it indeed did not follow thru on its initial encounter - did the spray really "fail" given the outcome? Bears learn from each other when they are young and following the sow - its an incredibly important period for future survival. In my world at least we frequently have 3 cubs per litter and each litter stays with the female two full growing seasons/winters before being kicked off the 3rd spring when the sow breeds again. They grow slow, so there is plenty of learning opportunity from mom as to where and where not to go and how to go about it. She gets negative reinforcement, she passes it along. So you can have entire litters learning that chicken houses/calving barns/back porches are not preferred foraging areas. If a bear hasn't had this "training" from momma (and not all do of course) a good dose of 71/2 shot in the ass or a snootful of bear spray is usually enough to teach a lesson. Bears live to be in excess of 25 years old. They learn from their environment as they go. Thats how they live to be in excess of 25 years old. I'm not making this any of this up - that is what the grizzly bear management folks tell us and in some cases they have spent their working lives trying to figure these things out. They would also be the first to say no rule is absolute. So pick your poison and above all learn to use it comfortably under duress. That woman who fell off the road could have been equally screwed no matter what she carried. If you are scared silly every time you enter bear habitat it might be a better idea to do something else. If nothing else doing something else would be more fun. I also seem to remember some differences in the relative power of bear spray allowed in Canada vs. US - anybody remember this or know more details? |
@ 05:37 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementMark - I found this article. May or may not be accurate but sounds reasonable. Will check further. https://ottawasun.com/2014/02/05/rules-confusing-around-bear-pepper-spray/wcm/6803d599-727f-4634-b233-6fa640617d1e |
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@ 08:24 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementI purchased bear spray for use as a dog deterrent while walking in the adjacent provincial park and lakeside trails. It is concealed under a garment. I look less threatening than walking with the ax handle I prefer as a defense mechanism against aggressive unleashed dogs.I've never deployed the bear spray but once when the due date expired on the previous can. I have no muscle memory in the use of the spray that could be relied upon in the event of an adrenaline rush. Probably throw the can as it would feel most natural. Much like a fire extinguisher. Used one once during training but the 1 & 1/2 inch hose was the go to unless knocking walls down with a 2 &1/2 inch and a master stream appliance for structure fires. Yes it is all relative. Knowing the facts about deployment of bear spray would require the observation of a remote viewer as adrenaline is not conducive to factual statements unless your continually receiving that potent surge in crisis situations. Becomes addictive. Too bad refillable bottles using vinegar and baking soda as a propellant are not available. Folks could practice using water then recharge with capsaicin when prepping for the outdoor adventure. Legalities? Protecting people from endangering themselves? Government intervention yet again? I'm guessing but the idea has merit. |
@ 09:36 am (GMT) |
Joshua MayfieldRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementThis is observation, not any attempt to agree with or counter any of the points made in a long and interesting discussion. I have miniscule experience around grizzly bears in the wild. I have slightly more experience around black bears in the wild. I have more experience around and exposure to people who've had various non-lethal deterrent measures used on them, some as part of a training exercise, some as a deterrent. One thing I am far more convinced of than any of the well articulated discussion points in previous posts is that every person reacts individually and there are exceptions to everything. My opinion is that bears are the same in that they're individuals both in personality and physiological tolerances and reactivity. I've watched cadets get sprayed in the face with gas deterrent used by law enforcement agencies and try to navigate a very simple obstacle course. Some simply can't function once the spray hits. Some walk on through calmly and look around as if to say "Is that it?" I've not witnessed it but I've talked with colleagues about men they've dealt with who responded indifferently to tazing and spray and whatever else was thrown at them. Although I've heard that nobody is indifferent to the grenades filled with capsicum coated rubber pellets and I'm not interested in testing that myself. My point is simply that my own skill and familiarity with whatever countermeasure I carry is highly important, but will never guarantee anything. And everyone who posts here knows that. I'd venture to say that one of the reasons we all love to enter nature, whether to hunt or to observe, is that we see and know we are not running it. And that is a glorious thing to know, respect, and appreciate. |
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@ 04:22 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementQuote: This is observation, not any attempt to agree with or counter any of the points made in a long and interesting discussion. I have miniscule experience around grizzly bears in the wild. I have slightly more experience around black bears in the wild. I have more experience around and exposure to people who've had various non-lethal deterrent measures used on them, some as part of a training exercise, some as a deterrent. One thing I am far more convinced of than any of the well articulated discussion points in previous posts is that every person reacts individually and there are exceptions to everything. My opinion is that bears are the same in that they're individuals both in personality and physiological tolerances and reactivity. I've watched cadets get sprayed in the face with gas deterrent used by law enforcement agencies and try to navigate a very simple obstacle course. Some simply can't function once the spray hits. Some walk on through calmly and look around as if to say "Is that it?" I've not witnessed it but I've talked with colleagues about men they've dealt with who responded indifferently to tazing and spray and whatever else was thrown at them. Although I've heard that nobody is indifferent to the grenades filled with capsicum coated rubber pellets and I'm not interested in testing that myself. My point is simply that my own skill and familiarity with whatever countermeasure I carry is highly important, but will never guarantee anything. And everyone who posts here knows that. I'd venture to say that one of the reasons we all love to enter nature, whether to hunt or to observe, is that we see and know we are not running it. And that is a glorious thing to know, respect, and appreciate.
Nice post! I do know that the "pepper spray' marketed for use on people is less powerful than the spray intended for use on bears From what I have personally seen I'd use the bear type on both! http://time.com/5270214/does-pepper-spray-work-on-bears/ The guy quoted was the point man in charge of grizzly recovery for nearly the entire effort in the lower 48 and I believe has since retired. By all accounts a well respected grizzly researcher. |
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@ 05:52 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Dangerous Game Shot Placementhttp://time.com/5270214/does-pepper-spray-work-on-bears/From the article, Quote: The spray is only effective when discharged into a bear’s face at fairly close range. How close? “Twenty to thirty feet at most,” Servheen says. Bear attacking at 40 feet per sec = 1 second reaction time. Related firearms study from the article, Quote: Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country. © 2012 The Wildlife Society. Please consider locating the following document that is an in depth assessment from the United States Department of Agriculture, Forest Service: Title: Safety in Bear Country: Protective Measures and Bullet Performance at Short Range. |
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@ 09:32 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementFrank - this begs the question of what your (or anyones) accurate reaction time with a holstered pistol or slung rifle is out of the gate on a charging bear at 40 feet. Remember - not much margin for error with a firearm - you can't just hit it so it dies 3 angry minutes from now. It has to be immobilized. My spray has at least a 6 foot margin of error at 30 feet. I have seen what it does to a bear's attitude at 30 feet. But so has Brian with a gun, though I have a feeling he has a world more of firearms experience than the average hunter/hiker/fisherman. For sure more than me. So I stand by this:"We are all free to use what makes us most comfortable - go for it. But the most important bear deterrent is your head - pay attention at all times and do not depend solely on whatever deterrent you choose to pack along. If the signs are wrong go somewhere else. I believe fully that most people get in trouble because they just aren't paying attention. No deterrent of any kind will fix stupid." |
@ 02:49 pm (GMT) |
Mike KanakRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementDue to my trapline, we're good for about a dozen black bears a year. It isn't that there's a limit, except a limit on how many I feel like putting up. Between that and a little grizzly hunting you might say that I've taken more than my share of bears. Maybe even a stupid amount of bears. Our biggest blacks are bigger than most grizzlies.First off the chances of a bear attack are slim. That isn't much of a consolation for the couple of work place fatalities that hit a little too close to home, but on the grand scheme of things your odds are pretty good until you get hit. At that point I wouldn't give you 50-50. Don't worry about the bears that are more scared of you than you are of it. You don't have to deal with those ones, you'll never see them. The only ones you may have to deal with aren't. Your best bear defense gun is whatever your partner is carrying. If a bear attacks you, you probably won't even see it coming never mind have time to react. If you have time, it probably wasn't a bear attack but a bear encounter. I'm not going to judge someone for deciding that that is as close as he's going to let it come, or as long as he's going to let one hang around. I've never found bears anything other than easy to kill, and just as easy to flatten. They are if anything more prone to shock than a deer. Relatively soft bullets well suited to deer work fine, and shots through the shoulders, frontal through the chest or through the matador sticking spot on a bear facing you with his head down will jerk the legs right out from underneath them. Its not hard to kill them so fast they don't even bawl. If you want it to run, shoot it through the lungs with an overly hard bullet. If you want to have to look for it, use a mono. Those are perfect for a bear you want to die somewhere else. Face it, more bears are shot by farmers and beekeepers than sport hunters. People who don't want a live bear probably don't want a dead one either. A lot of the bears we shoot are conveniently tied to trees, so short of being rather un-happy are in as close to lab conditions as you're likely to find. People who shoot them in the head can bloody well skin it themselves so that leaves body shots. A light ballistic-tip, or Accu-bond, boring cup and cores or horror of horrors a Berger conclude matters in a hurry. I ended up using more 180 VLDs from my 7-300 than anything, same loads I use for ADC beavers. Bears are easy to kill if you work with it; and darned hard to find if you over bullet yourself. As near as I can tell, bear sprays are promoted most heavily by those that sell it, those that hate guns, and those that are cheering for the bears. Numbers are skewed because people who use it are likely to report it, and those that use rifles would have to be crazy to report it unless there has been an injury or there just isnt any way around it. If you have to report it, its likely to someone that hates guns or is cheering for the bears. Believe me, there are plenty of people that think a few dead people is acceptable loses compared to saving a few bears. For those that champion pepper spray; challenge them to a duel. They can have their spray, you bring your gun. None will take you up on it. ;)[b] |
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@ 03:57 am (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementThanks Mike!I will add the following: Michael Enright, an accomplished journalist & broadcaster interviewed three individuals in bear incidences. 1/ House wife in Burnaby BC. Runs off a bear from he kitchen with a broom. 2/ Scientist had been visiting in the Arctic for years. Never had an encounter with a polar until waking up in his tent with a bear sniffing at him. He was so frightened that he punched the bear in the nose and it ran off. 3/ Trapper in Quebec. Stated he felt being watched throughout the day while tending the trap-line. He set his rifle against a tree further than usual while working. He was attacked by a red haired bear. Mauled him across his scalp. Chewed on his arm that was put up in defense. Trapper tried to climb a tree resulting in calf and hamstring being chewed off. He was being eaten alive but managed to reach his rifle. The bear ran off. Two years of physical therapy to physically recover. You could hear the trauma in his voice as he recounted his horror. His final statement was, " I'm going back to the bush and get that bear". If your targeted your so correct. You won't see it coming. |
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@ 06:11 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementFrank and Mike"If your targeted your so correct. You won't see it coming." I was targeted and saw it coming. I personally know folks that would be happy to tell you similar stories. Mike - You might want to be a little more cautious about bragging about illegal wildlife harvest on line. Our local game warden tells me that social media and on line forums are the most productive places the authorities have to harvest miscreants. Apparently if given enough time they eventually show up almost every time. |
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@ 12:32 pm (GMT) |
Mike KanakRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementNothing I said is illegal. Where I live bear snaring is legal. Landowners with livestock can kill any carnivore. Bee keepers can kill any bear within 1000 meters of their hives. Thats the law. Theres no brag involved, its just the way it is. |
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@ 02:14 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: Dangerous Game Shot Placement"Due to my trapline, we're good for about a dozen black bears a year. It isn't that there's a limit, except a limit' on how many I feel like putting up. "Mike - I'm sure it is legal where you live. I see that bear snaring is legal in some Canadian Provinces but the highest legal limit I could find for black bears in any Province was 4 per year - in Quebec, which as far as I know has none of the grizzlies that you mentioned hunting. I could be wrong or maybe you travel to hunt grizzlies, In any case there are some places where the limit is reached when you tire of getting there. Its all too common. I would also add that shooting a bear "tied to a tree" is hardly a testament to your experience with charging grizzly bears. I have no doubt that you've offed a lot of black bears and you can tell us all about what bullet works under near laboratory circumstances. And I'm pretty sure bear spray would work well on a bear "tied to a tree". Though I haven't personally tried it. What I doubt is your own personal experience standing down a grizzly whose sole driving intent is kicking your ass. I have done that and there are others on here that have done that and while I may not choose their methods of deterrence for myself, I fully respect their personal experience and resulting choices in the matter. Its a humbling experience. |
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@ 05:38 pm (GMT) |
Mike KanakRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementI live in Saskatchewan, and there is no limit on fur bearers, which is what a bear is. Its also a big game animal with a limit of one which makes no sense, and a pest with no limit which makes plenty of sense. I wouldn't stop in Quebec to take a dump.As you correctly guess, I travel to hunt grizzlies and a great many other things. . Alaska and B.C, inland and coastal. I'm probably done with them now now that BC basically shut it down. It wouldn't have mattered much because I find it a boring style of hunt, and I'm not overly thrilled by getting rained on all day everyday. When people hear something they don't like about bullet performance or shot placement they usually blame the shooter. When you eliminate any chance of blaming the shooter they will whine about that. If you have more experience on something they try to believe that it somehow doesn't count. Doesn't matter much to me because I know how to kill bears, and don't think its very hard, and can prove it on demand. I've walked onto grizzlies unexpectly, and it has never turned into a big deal. Lucky I guess. Usually they bugger off, sometimes I have to with my thumb on the safety. Biggest thing is having a rifle and knowing where the bear is. Camping on salmon streams frequently has bears wandering through camp. Sleep with your rifle and go back to bed. If he wanted you, he'd already have you. If you want something exciting have a herd of cape buffalo over-run your position, or a single one charge you. If that bores you, try it with elephant. These days I'd rather cull in Australia and New Zealand. |
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@ 03:24 pm (GMT) |
Frank VallichRe: Dangerous Game Shot PlacementQuote: I live in Saskatchewan, and there is no limit on fur bearers, which is what a bear is. Its also a big game animal with a limit of one which makes no sense, and a pest with no limit which makes plenty of sense. I wouldn't stop in Quebec to take a dump.
As you correctly guess, I travel to hunt grizzlies and a great many other things. . Alaska and B.C, inland and coastal. I'm probably done with them now now that BC basically shut it down. It wouldn't have mattered much because I find it a boring style of hunt, and I'm not overly thrilled by getting rained on all day everyday. When people hear something they don't like about bullet performance or shot placement they usually blame the shooter. When you eliminate any chance of blaming the shooter they will whine about that. If you have more experience on something they try to believe that it somehow doesn't count. Doesn't matter much to me because I know how to kill bears, and don't think its very hard, and can prove it on demand. I've walked onto grizzlies unexpectly, and it has never turned into a big deal. Lucky I guess. Usually they bugger off, sometimes I have to with my thumb on the safety. Biggest thing is having a rifle and knowing where the bear is. Camping on salmon streams frequently has bears wandering through camp. Sleep with your rifle and go back to bed. If he wanted you, he'd already have you. If you want something exciting have a herd of cape buffalo over-run your position, or a single one charge you. If that bores you, try it with elephant. These days I'd rather cull in Australia and New Zealand. Buwahahahaha! No chief, I didn't guess you travel to shoot. I'm certain the educated people of Quebec won't miss your smell and attitude as there is plenty on hand in their province from all the other self important AHs. |
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