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Forum Index > Medium and large game hunting > Dangerous Game Shot Placement

Dangerous Game Shot Placement

26 Aug 2018
@ 08:16 am (GMT)

John D. Hays - New Mexico

Hi, I found this trenchant comment on a YouTube video. I don't know Mr. Syverson, but found it more interesting than the video he was commenting on:

Bear Attack Shot Placement -- Scott Syverson – March 2018

Bears, in all three North American species, are highly robust due to the oxygenation capacities of their blood. These bears can persist in an attack for greater than sixty seconds after their heart and lungs have been destroyed before they start to experience onset of central nervous system failure from oxygen starvation. This is why the statistics skewed handgun repulsion as being less effective.

There is a period of time in which the animal may be terminally dead via cessation of circulation, but they're in waning residual oxygenation consumption allowing them to reach and maul their subjects before feeling the effects of bullet damage if the primary effect of pain did not terminate the attack. A bear does not need a pulse to maul you. Only central nervous system damage by a bullet will immediately stop an attacking charge, followed by a lesser degree of skeletal damage. So bullet placement is critical, the most desirous is a bullet to the head.

This is also why the statistics skew in that gun defense required four shots on average. What is missing is a cause and effect relationship. Did the first bullet do the job of destroying heart/lung/circulation and the remaining shots added no additional damage? Is the average of four shots due to the fact that in the 60 seconds of residual oxygenation reserve before reserves were consumed a shooter can get off multiple shots? The statistics presented cannot address this and may be misleading. This goes to your strategy of effectively using a gun. By choosing and practicing to shoot center mass for soft tissue destruction of heart/lungs you may by design giving a bear sixty seconds to do what they want with you.

I recommend practicing for bullet placement in the head. First, a bear charging is a straight-at-you affair with the head in the center mass column but usually higher in that column. If you miss high and the charging animal is coming downhill, you have a chance of striking the spine in the rear sections immobilizing the animal instantly. Wrong bullet selection of soft lead may not have the penetrative powers of hard case bullets, but this is not what headshots deliver. The goal is to transfer kinetic energy to the central nervous system core. No animal, bears withstanding, have any particular hardening or hardiness against powerful blows to the brain.

If your shot placement is offline horizontally, you stand a good chance of busting a shoulder or more hopefully destroying a sensory organ in the head like an eye, ear, or nose, all of which will have a much greater probability of disrupting a charge. Again, this is why pepper sprays are more effect - the attack strategy is to disrupt a bear's sensory suite and thus its ability to execute an attack. This is also why Alaskan guides carry short-barrel shotguns with a mix of slugs and 00 buck shot. The goal is to tear up a bear’s face and head, and thus its sensory suite to disrupt attacks along with heavy slugs to break the skeleton, rather than selecting for soft tissue heart/lung damage as a means to stop attacks.

Headshots, shots higher in the centerline rather than center mass targeting create a totally different result pattern. All this is a long-winded way of saying that the statistics quoted can be highly misleading because guns were employed in the wrong way by most people working under the presumption of center mass targeting against a bear, whose anatomical properties are not the same as humans. The human central nervous system, due to our highly developed brain is extremely susceptible to oxygen disruption and exsanguination. This is what informs most shooters and their shooting strategies. A bears is not sensitive to this, so different shooting strategies will yield much different results.

Scott Syverson – March 2018
Comments on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlaJsnEzjNE

Replies

26 Aug 2018
@ 09:46 am (GMT)

Nathan Foster

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
I have been head to head with both cattle and boar. I have also been in so close that to use a rifle would simply cause harm to myself (blast) at which point I have had to dump the gun and get busy with a knife. I have also run out of ammo and had to ditch the gun. It sounds cool but if it was caught on film- think guy dancing around like an idiot, completely undignified.

Things to be aware of:

Yes, depending on the species, you can aim for the head with a charge (your eyes are drawn their anyway - its not like you see much else unless you can will yourself to look elsewhere). But be aware, the head is bobbing up and down, its not a static target, only a general aim can be achieved. Secondly, the angle of the head often creates bullet deflection. Your chances of actually hitting the brain of a moving target with deflective surfaces are like trying to land a lunar module, so be realistic. Aim shoot, reload, keep shooting. You could have all the skill in the world and the bullet may still deflect off center depending on the angles. I am not just talking one shot either, you can put three or four shots into the head and still not destroy the brain due to the combination of movement and deflection- but it may slow the animal up for knife work.

If you want to drain oxygen quickly, drain the blood quickly. The bigger the wound, the faster the bleed. In other words, use plenty of gun. Make that first shot count as best as you can. Also, the bigger the bullet, the better the chance of a KO even if the bullet deflects.

Anyone who has been shot (I have) will know that pain is often absent from the shot. Nerves are severed. If you have a mind to carry on and you are able, you will carry on. So put all of that theory out of your mind. Pain comes later. Another theory goes- its not what you have, its how you use it. This is often a cop out for guys too cheap to get decent kit or too lazy or undisciplined to practice using a rifle of sufficient power. In other situations, its simply BS based on no experience whatsoever. The 'not what you have' theory has no parameters to it. On the other hand, using maximum power without accuracy also has its problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAxO0EL1IzM
27 Aug 2018
@ 10:09 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Well, I reckon that you should be smart and leave the nasty buggers alone. Only shoot them if you really have to and then make sure you have a sledge hammer cartridge like a Milkor MGL riot gun. No point mucking around and getting pulled appart
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkor_MGL
Nathan I've seen bullets bounce off rams heads and they just get pissed off and have a go! Cattle don't take it well either and will push the tractor around. A mate head shot a steer for the freezer @ 20ft with mild 6.5 swede load and it bounced and wined as it ricocheted off the skull. His father in law instantly ran in and smacked it with the back of an axe and it collapsed and never moved. Not bad for a 70 year old ex slaughter man from the freezing works. I'm pleased that we don't have bears in NZ. Boar, Bulls and Stags will do me. Smoky and Yogi can stay in the North . Maybe the oxygen in the blood things because they slow down their metabolism when they Hibernate?
27 Aug 2018
@ 05:03 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Lion hunt gets messy

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qoCzBb7zdb8
28 Aug 2018
@ 04:11 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Curious - has anyone considered bear spray for critters other than bears? I would think if you had something in knife range bear spray would be much more effective than a blade (though maybe not as entertaining on the video).
28 Aug 2018
@ 09:48 am (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
It would be great as long as the winds not in your face and you get a taste of it too! It'd wouldn't be funny seeing you and the bear on the ground rubbing your eyes and gagging on pepper spray.
Bears can run fast!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-zptCXYxces
01 Sep 2018
@ 03:37 pm (GMT)

John D. Hays - New Mexico

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Nathan,

Thanks for the link to the video, "375 RUM, Bull Cattle Beast Hunt (old footage)."

I don't mind the blood/gore and wish we could see more of these candid hunting videos. I don't guess the general Youtube public would approve though.

Regarding dangerous game, I am not too worried about bears and such myself. I spent twenty years as a survey field archaeologist out in the outdoors, deserts and woodlands, and never had any trouble while alone in the wild.

I worry more about taking the kids out day hiking, having them dawdle and stray, and present as vulnerable prey. I agree with the Rumsfeld aphorism, "Weakness is provocative."

Here is a link to a "Bear Maulings" video from an Alaskan hunter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDtUBJm4la0

He, Chuke, also makes some amusing hunting videos.
15 Feb 2019
@ 09:38 am (GMT)

Frank Vallich

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Tad late in reading the post.

I've never shot a charging bear that has a killing, predatory, intent. I'm not capable of believing in bear spray after witnessing the savagery of this beast that is perfect for the Bush. At one time my belief was 12 guage with 00, followed by rifled slug and repeated pattern. No longer. When this animal is in full motion, less than a second, and it is moving at 40 feet per second your better off having a bayonet mounted for your last hurrah than a bolt or pump action.

I have backed away from bears while on foot, turned the quad around and fled from two young grizzly on an oil lease road giving me thought to close quarter encounters. I drive and walk overgrown pipeline paths and Bush trails. If your lucky you can smell them or hear their approach.

When a bear runs the head is a revolving turret mounted on those broad shoulders. A difficult target. I've settled on a reliable semi auto in .308 as defense. I always pack that rifle. Carry two rifles to a snipping position. The scoped and dedicated ungulate rifle and the semi. Fear of being eaten alive.
20 Feb 2019
@ 04:02 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Frank - Buy a can of bear spray and have someone spray it at you downwind 75 yards away. Stand there with your eyes open. Do this where you have plenty of access to fresh clean water or saline eye wash. Then imagine getting hit full on in the face at 30 feet - eyes, mouth, nasal passages - the works. You will quickly understand why it works so well on bears when used correctly.
20 Feb 2019
@ 04:41 am (GMT)

Frank Vallich

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Mark, colour me skeptical for the following reasons.
Wind direction is unpredictable.
Muscle memory allows quick reaction with a firearm.
Close quarters in the bush would require safety goggles.
I'm not brave enough to risk severe injury and infections while alone in the bush. Safety in numbers with cans of bear spray and as I am fleet of foot someone else will be the victim.
Much as I stated to my brother after we snuck up on two bull elk fighting over a cow. He would not shut up and when the bulls broke apart and glared at us I ran. It was a harvest moon and we were unarmed. My brother shouted as we weaved down a path, "Do you think they'll get us? ". I replied that they won't get me but they will get you.

Self preservation. I was a professional firefighter over a period of four years. Friends and family abandoned in fires. You never know how anyone will react unless previous exposure provided a learning curve.


Too unpredictable friend.

20 Feb 2019
@ 05:56 am (GMT)

Caleb Mayfield

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Quote:

Frank - Buy a can of bear spray and have someone spray it at you downwind 75 yards away. Stand there with your eyes open. Do this where you have plenty of access to fresh clean water or saline eye wash. Then imagine getting hit full on in the face at 30 feet - eyes, mouth, nasal passages - the works. You will quickly understand why it works so well on bears when used correctly.


Mark, I hope you are correct and that I never need to find out if it's true, but please forgive me. I can't help but think of this sign when I read this.

21 Feb 2019
@ 04:08 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Frank - If your muscle memory allows you to draw a handgun (or raise that 2nd rifle in that brush you mentioned) and fire it accurately (you better anchor him w/your first shot - this isn't hand grenades or horseshoes) at a 400 pound animal running at you 30 mph 30 feet away, go for it. I'm not that good and I seriously doubt most are. Spray is like a shotgun blast that has lots of margin for error as you are messing your pants. Wind is definitely a factor - the standard protocol is to spray and close your eyes/avert your head. You may get some blow back - I know a bow hunter that did but the bear got the idea and left the scene in a hurry. The bow hunter had sore eyes for a bit, but he still carries bear spray, not a gun. And based on everything I have ever read coming from every wildlife manager that ever investigated a bear encounter, running away is the worst possible reaction. You can't outrun a determined bear (or an elk) or we would have heard about you long ago in a different context. And as for outrunning your friends in a pinch - well:)

John - ah yes - the sign. I would have thought that thing would have rotted away and disappeared by now, but I guess the internet is the best preservative out there:) Too bad a private campground made a dumb joke out of what could potentially be a life or death situation for someone. I haven't looked up the stats but I'm willing to bet more people get injured by their own "bear guns" than ever get injured by bears. And that doesn't enter injuries caused by bears shot just a few inches off the sweet spot that finally puts them down before they run out of steam taking their pain out on you.

We are all free to use what makes us most comfortable - go for it. But the most important bear deterrent is your head - pay attention at all times and do not depend solely on whatever deterrent you choose to pack along. If the signs are wrong go somewhere else. I believe fully that most people get in trouble because they just aren't paying attention. No deterrent of any kind will fix stupid.
21 Feb 2019
@ 05:26 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
I read Frank's post and it brought back some very distinct memories. Bears in our part of the world are a reality, and all the theoretical rhetoric is all interesting reading and good for campfire discussion. The fact of the matter is, if a bear wants you, he/she will get you. I think that it is safe to assume that Frank, like myself, have seen a few interactions with bears that would change the opinions of most of the hunting public. Bears at spitting distance that just turn and walk away. Bears at 100 yards plus, that put their heads down, lock onto you with their "weak" eyes, and walk in an unerring and rather unnerving straight line. And , of course, bears in little vacuum packed packages in the freezer. (Those are the best ones.)

I can't argue the case for or against bear spray. I know it works on dogs. I've seen a black bear take a 12 gauge slug through both shoulders and run full tilt, thankfully in the other direction. I've also seen a black bear take a Silvertip from a 300 H&H and attack the entry wound with such ferocity that it made me wonder if "survival" encounters were just a fluke.

A bear at full speed, whether black or griz, from 30 feet away - make your peace with your deity of choice. You will not have time to draw, activate, and let off a blast from whatever method of protection you choose. Even a slow bear, at 30mph is moving 44 feet per second. You can do the math.

So, to my way of thinking, such as in life in general, you have a choice. Go outside, go hunting, have fun, enjoy the wilderness, or, stay home. For most people, the second choice is often the better of the two.
21 Feb 2019
@ 05:47 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Another story:

We are elk/moose hunting in Northeast B.C. We are twelve hours by horseback from main camp. The latest statistical report from our beloved government states that we are in the middle of the highest concentration of inland grizzly bears in the province. (Sound like home, Bryan? It is.) I have , like Frank, an innate fear of being eaten alive. I also have an inescapable fear of the darkness and night. This second condition keeps me on heightened alert throughout the night, which lends itself to very little and very poor sleep, but really good adrenaline production. In all the years of hunting, this has never lessened, so I am thinking that it is genetically and instinctually ingrained in my subconscious. It also makes for some very long and exhausting days hunting in the mountains. So, how does one cope with this? My solution is to find a nice warm, comfortable tree to lean against, and have a short nap. Short nap - right. Somewhere in the neighbourhood of two hours worth of sleep. Out. Completely and utterly out. Now, how stupid is that. To think that just because it's daylight, you are safe from bears. Any number of animals could have walked by, or even walked up to me, and I would never have known. My thought process at the time: screw it, I'm tired.

If a bear wanted me, he could have me, just has to be patient.
21 Feb 2019
@ 07:23 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Paul -
I can say bear spray works - I've used it and personally know others here in my small community that have used it when hiking and bow hunting. I will maintain that bear spray at close range in a fast moving chaotic scenario is far more likely to find its target than most other deterents in most other hands. And I agree with your last line - accept the possibilities or stay home. Here is the word from the folks that study grizzly bears and investigate bear encounters in the US.

http://igbconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2017_IGBC_bear_spray_guidance.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVfmRJsFj5U&list=PLjfV4J8TND0sAd1Erax8A62i-fjgwiA6c&index=40

But again - to each their own - I'll trust my personal experience, experience of those I personally know and the overall numbers on guns vs. bear spray referenced in the 2nd clip.

I take naps in bear country all the time. I'm not worried about a bear walking by and deciding I'm food. I'm worried about stumbling onto a sow with cubs or a sleeping bear in heavy cover. Statistically speaking you were probably a lot safer snoozing under that tree than when you were on the back of that horse, especially when you and the horse are both exhausted after 10 or 12 hours of riding - that sounds dangerous enough to me! Bears are a reality here too. I don't have figures for population density in the area I hunt - its highly variable based on season, but I know I saw 7 individual grizzlies in 4 days of elk hunting in a pretty limited area (1- 2 square miles maybe) last year. That is in high end bear habitat just before hibernation, so that number is undoubtedly inflated based on the year round population. But that's dense enough for me. I left the field to them until it got really cold.

Whatever you choose you better know how to use it well and keep it close. The biggest, hottest can of bear spray or the loudest booming ultra mag gun in the world won't help you if you are incompetent in its execution.

Except in online theory.
21 Feb 2019
@ 08:44 am (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
And really, we are just talking about grizzly bears here. Black bears, unless of course they have habituated to human food and behaviour, are for the most part only interested in running away. A handful of (wilderness) attacks in the last century or so, doesn't really constitute a threat.

Tourists on the other hand, create their own problems, by encroaching upon a bear's traditional territory where might is right, by supplying an easily and readily available food source, and by thinking that Walt Disney and Marlin Perkins were the divine authority on animal behaviour.

21 Feb 2019
@ 09:07 am (GMT)

Frank Vallich

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Hello All:

You to Mark! Just kidding. :) Good post to discuss the reality of wildlife interactions.
My 90 lb mutt perfect for the 4 seasons abandoned me and went straight back to camp while I was ice fishing once the coyotes started howling. Yet his balls were so big he took on two junk yard malamutes that were showing teeth on a separate occasion. Actually the intelligence of both situations is not lost on me.

I'd rather trust my firearm muscle memory and the semi- auto than a spray can. I know where and how to,1/safety off 2/ shoulder aim 3/ keep firing until empty. No shame in that! It is quick and definitive. A spray can in a holder on the belt is not comforting. I would not want to be second guessing myself after being mauled and thinking. Gee Frank, why did you give up on something you do so well for the unknown.


I've never run from any animal. Backed away, yes! Drove the quad away, hell yes! Except for those small ankle biting dogs. Rather look like a bully staring one down and squashing the rib cage than accepting bad behavior. Its the owner that is rather difficult to contend with calmly after the action. Bad behavior of a dog is a reflection of the owner.

Speaking of behavior. Wild mammals of the bush are also subjective to getting up on the wrong side of the bed, so to speak. Some more aggressive than others. Generally though hunger, thirst or possible infection due to injury.

I stopped one beautiful morning in July south of Mount Robson for the daily movement. Veered onto a logging road and stopped where a wide swath had been cut with wild flowers blooming everywhere. Wandered off taking in the beauty and found a soft spot among flowers that were about two to three feet high. Kicked open a hole, peeled of lower clothes, squatted, grabbed the sack and then a moose head appeared out of the bush about 150 yards north. It looked right, left and then snapped its head right. Focused in on me. What she saw was a human head above a bloom of yellow wild flowers. Here she comes and time has slowed down to where I'm noticing the bees among the flowers, the ants and spiders and feeling/hearing the approach of the cow. Only realizing it was a cow after --- the moose stopped 20 feet short of my position slowing down from a canter to a walk to a stop. Facing me she stooped her head toward me, flared her nostrils and puffed as if I was the smelliest piece of life she had ever observed. Yeah, my bodily function performed during this cycle of the unknown. She turned and walked away, stopping once to look back and then melted into the bush. I was too far from the vehicle to ever had the possibility of escape. I did not have a firearm. What would have happened if I did? Why was I spared? Behavior, Intelligence and Curiosity of the cow. Intuitive to recognize no aggression and a Non threatening posture?? :|

Shit happens!


Great to read the posts.
21 Feb 2019
@ 10:39 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Paul - Unfortunately I can't speak for your part of the world (I'd love to check it out sometime), but here in MT the grizzly bears are for the most part pretty leery of humans too. I have had numerous encounters where they ran away fast and hard enough that you could easily track their direction and distance for quite a ways by the sound of brush breaking. Its the sows/cubs and the surprised bears at close range that you need to be prepared for.
21 Feb 2019
@ 11:01 am (GMT)

Bob Mavin

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
We've got some very nasty BULL ANTS here in Australia !!! :)

Thankfully we don't have BEARS !!! well ones that will eat you.
21 Feb 2019
@ 04:25 pm (GMT)

Paul Leverman

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Bob - we have so many predators here, it's amazing anyone gets back to camp. I'm pretty sure it's the same everywhere you go, just different animals. We may have bears but you have crocs. We can't go for a walk, and you can't go for a swim. We can't win.
22 Feb 2019
@ 07:54 pm (GMT)

Warwick Marflitt

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Reading this post got me thinking!!!! Maybe Someone needs to mix guns and Capsicum together. A bag full of powerful Capsicum liquid or powder in a 3inch shotgun shell to deliver a face full or Air burst round of the stuff, might be an option? The riot squads of the world seam to have fire extinguisher sized cylinders that fire huge clouds of the stuff into the eyes and noses of their fellow citizens with great effect? Heck they could use\test the shotgun capsicum rounds on people to subdue the ring leaders of the crowd and save some money by not wasting big cans of it on all the people gathered to protest against things like Agenda 21 proposes??? Then some clever Tazer round with a Shocking zap! To flatten the combatants charge...... No Pun intended

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPslzA7sgCo

https://youtu.be/rihEeryzbyM?t=46

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBYUe0Q02jU

Should we be "Shocked" that this tech has already been developed? Remember to wear ya tinfoil undies n singlet to the maul........
23 Feb 2019
@ 04:31 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Bob - Personally I'd rather have grizzly bears than bull ants. Day and day out they seem a much more nasty thing to deal with.

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/3862928/beware-the-abdomen-sting-of-the-bull-ants/

Bears really aren't that bad - pretty neat creatures unless you get too close. I used to work in the Arctic on the coast and there was a local saying - Eskimo Life Jacket = Stay in the Boat. Kind of the same thing with bears. No offense intended to any Inuit out there - very sound advice in my view.

Paul - The only place I feel like I'm afraid to go for a walk are parts of some cities. The critters are just a part of the landscape in my view. They are what make it special and I'll bet you wouldn't live anywhere else :) I know I wouldn't.

Warwick - As I mentioned earlier - just have someone spray you with a little bit of bear spray and you will see that an adequate dosage is already available. We're not dealing with crowdsof bears - at least not where I live.
23 Feb 2019
@ 12:59 pm (GMT)

Frank Vallich

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Warwick:
Apply your idea to a rim fired flare pen that easily rides in your front shirt pocket and your a millionaire.

I would purchase a dozen!

I'd rather go out with a bang than a psssst.
26 Feb 2019
@ 03:55 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Quote:
Warwick:
Apply your idea to a rim fired flare pen that easily rides in your front shirt pocket and your a millionaire.

I would purchase a dozen!

I'd rather go out with a bang than a psssst.





I'd rather not go out
26 Feb 2019
@ 07:26 am (GMT)

Bryan Webster

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Quote:
Paul - Unfortunately I can't speak for your part of the world (I'd love to check it out sometime), but here in MT the grizzly bears are for the most part pretty leery of humans too. I have had numerous encounters where they ran away fast and hard enough that you could easily track their direction and distance for quite a ways by the sound of brush breaking. Its the sows/cubs and the surprised bears at close range that you need to be prepared for.


A few years ago our Fish and Wildlife guys got green and closed all hunting of grizzly bear in the province. Now when one shoots an elk along Tuchodi or Gathto rivers, you best have one or two buddies watching for them because they come running to each shot. There have been attacks and also simple bluff charging repeatedly. Nobody with an intact brain would use bear spray in those situations. I have been there numerous times, having had to shoot only one bear that just kept on coming as fast as a race horse, and voted for the head shot.

Generalize all one wants, things may not always be the same and bear spray with bears that are hunted and have respect are not the same as we have in these cases.
27 Feb 2019
@ 04:17 am (GMT)

mark korte

Re: Dangerous Game Shot Placement
Brian - As stated I can't speak for your part of the world - sounds pretty awesome though. As to relative personal experience with charging grizzlies determined to follow thru I guess we're about equal - you shot yours and I sprayed mine and we're both here to tell the tale, brains intact. Grizzlies here are presently not hunted - not for the last 25 years or so - near the entire life span of an old bear, so we are dealing with entire new generations of un-hunted bears. Previously they were hunted almost to the point of extinction and had to be listed as Threatened Species or they likely would have gone down the tubes - something many welcomed the idea of. They are recovering very well though and I suspect that soon there will be some sort of token season that allows a hand full of bears to be taken each year. This may exert some micro control on numbers, but what it mostly does is give some humans the idea that they can control grizzly behavior by "teaching them a lesson" by killing a few of them. As to how that works - I have never been able to figure out how a dead bear teaches a live bear any lesson in regards to the danger of human interaction. Dead is dead. And I seriously doubt having a hunting season is going to stop a sow from protecting her cubs - that behavior seems pretty hard-wired to me. If we really wanted to teach them a lesson about claiming elk carcasses or eating the dog's food off the back porch it seems a better plan to me if we shot them in axx with shotguns and otherwise harassed them at every opportunity - including a face full of pepper spray. Thats what bear managers encourage people around here to do with bears that are showing signs of growing a little too accustomed to humans and their livestock. Bears claiming carcasses are a real issue here as well. Most people (including myself) go to great lengths to make sure as much meat as possible is moved away from the the carcass/gut pile before nightfall and anyone that approaches the scene the next day and is unprepared to deal with a bear is a fool. I bring a friend and shotguns and bear spray. I've never had to chase one off, but if I did try and it did not want to leave the carcass I'd surrender the field and call up the game warden for a new tag - the recommended solution. Wardens are pretty committed about avoiding human/bear behavior that invariably ends in trouble for all parties involved. Saves on paperwork!
In the end its all well and good fun on a firearms website to speculate on the caliber/load/configuration of the ideal grizzly gun. But for the average fisherman/hiker/12 year old kid checking his muskrat traps a .375 Model 70 or a 10mm Glock (or lets face it - gun owner)is probably not a logical choice. Anybody venturing into grizzly habitat should think hard about what they can realistically operate successfully in a situation where intact brains are easily and sometimes instantly mislaid. And then be prepared for the consequences of that choice.
 

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