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> Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308
Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308
@ 10:15 pm (GMT) |
Hannah ClemenHi everyone,I'm on a sambar stag mission over the next several months here in NE Victoria. I have narrowed down a number of locations to hike into and am starting to consider developing a handload that will give me the best performance at sub-150m distances with my .308. I have been working with the Hornady ELDX/ELDM for my longer-term project for long-distance hunting, but for this mission I will need a load with different properties. I need a projectile that will produce maximum penetration with a wide wound channel (hopefully with a pass-through if I can place the shot well) so if my stag goes into a dead run, I will have a good blood trail to find him in thick bush. Ideally I am also looking for something I can load to a velocity that will also give me the best chance for an initial knockdown with hydrostatic/hydraulic shock (I'm guessing that means 2600fps at impact?). I know this is a big ask from my humble .308 (Howa 22" sporter barrel), but hopefully I can find something that will give me the best chance at achieving my goal. At this stage I am looking at the Barnes TSX/TTSX in 165gn to give me a good balance between velocity and weight. I am using AR2208 powder which, according to Barnes' load data could give me a maximum 2750fp muzzle velocity. However, given it is such a tough bullet, would it be beneficial for me to go lighter and faster, or are there other projectiles I could consider? I'd appreciate any advice or suggestions. In my limited experience over the last few years, I have successfully shot and killed about 6 sambar, so have already become very aware of their ability to run even with the most devastating internal or external wounding in their vitals. |
Replies
@ 08:12 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308Hi Hannah, this is a somewhat difficult question to answer due, as you have already pointed out, to the energy limitations of the .308 cartridge.What you are asking is for a bullet that produces major internal trauma trauma but with sufficient energy to extend this level of trauma through to the exit, thereby creating a wide and free bleeding blood trailing wound. If a soft bullet is used, the .308 will dump all of its energy inside the target. If on the other hand a very tough bullet is used, the retained energy will limit internal wounding yet may be insufficient to generate a suitably large exit wound for trailing. Generally, to achieve a trackable wound, two factors must be evident - a large exit wound (mechanical action etc) and high exit velocity. It takes a great deal of energy to achieve this on large bodied game. As a very general rule, a pointed bullet will lose 200fps per 100 yards travel. There is no need to take this particular math further. It also pays to assume that the Barnes data is optimistic. You will likely achieve 2650fps with quoted load data but may be able to work up to 2700fps and achieve good accuracy. At 2700fps, without checking exact data, you may be down to 2400fps at 150 yards which is the threshold for this bullet as far as 'adequate' wounding goes. If the bullet strikes too far back (rearmost ribs) at 2400fps, it will most likely fail to produce a good blood trail due to the narrow exit wound. This bullet may still however be your best choice, especially if most bush shots are well inside 100 yards as often happens. The only caveat to this is that at the time Remington / Barnes went bust (before the recent Sierra purchase), they were I believe sourcing inferior copper. I have seen firsthand several combos fail to expand at impact velocities as high as 3000fps. If you opt for the Barnes, I suggest testing the individual batch on lesser ferals (e.g. close range front or quartering on) before you take this after Sambar. I have no answers for you otherwise as each option has its limitations. The only other bullet I would suggest is the 200 grain Partition as this projectile works well on large deer at impact velocities of 2200 to 2600fps. You could drive this at 2475fps. However, I do not want to distract you from your choice and as suggested, your shots may be closer than 100 yards. You may also have more time to pick your shots at 150. Its the really close stuff that can muck us around and the Barnes is violent when used in this manner. As an aside and from an email earlier this morning (edited for privacy): Q: I started using the Federal Edge TLR, worked up a .308 load for an elk hunt which shot 1/2" groups. on my AR10 platform I shot a bull Elk at 100 yards, hard quartering away and it went maybe 50 yards and sat down dead. On another hunt I dropped a bull at 350'ish with a bad placed shot (was shooting across a small canyon and I think the cross wind was higher than I thought). I had to track this one 8 hours to find him. Fast forward to last year, I became perplexed after hunting East Coast Whitetail deer (they max out at 150ish, and most are 100-110 lbs) (50-55 Kgs). The first one I shot dropped like a stone, then the next two - have no clue. The gun clearly was accurate (from the first kill) but I shot at 2 others and no blood, no trail, no body (I went back the next day with my fiance and we combed the farm). Both of those were 200 - 150 ish. So I am wondering if this bullet is a stout (as you call it) bullet and is great for heavy game at a variety or ranges but not so much on lighter body game? A: yes the word you are looking for is - bullshit. This is the downside of the modern company structures, when marketing (or ideas / concepts) is put ahead of honesty, integrity, a willingness to learn and hard data. It is a shame that many gun and ammo companies currently behave in such a way as to dis-empower rather than empower customers. I cannot see this ending well long term. I can only hope that through education, I might be able to help hunters steer this back on course before they become disillusioned or before younger potential hunters see this sport as cruel due to the useless rifles and ammo. I cannot put the gravity of this in to words, all I can do is take each day as it comes and try to help my community. The Edge TLR is a variant of the Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. After adding a tip, it was called the Trophy Bonded Tip (introduced 2008). It has since been rebranded as the Edge TLR, I assume by some wet whelp with a marketing degree who's balls were still in the process of dropping. The Tipped Bear Claw / TLR or whatever it will be called next - regardless of minor changes - is not great for heavy game at a variety of ranges. More succinctly, it is suitable for tough game at close to moderate ranges only, regardless of the rate of expansion. Understand that at low impact velocities (low kinetic energy), the bullet must dump as much energy as possible to make up for its low potential. The size of the animal makes no difference in this context. If a 200gr bullet strikes at 1800fps and passes through a large animal with 95% weight retention, the bullet will have produced minimal hydraulic trauma (due to minimal kinetic energy) as well as minimal mechanical trauma (due to minimal weight loss / change in form). This level of ineptitude among modern ballisticians / manufacturers etc is beyond my comprehension. In speaking with various companies, I currently find this akin to trying to explain ballistics to preschoolers. In any case, you have answered your own question, the bullet was too tough, failing to dump energy. All the best. Wet whelp tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiCSBFsYAwg |
@ 05:37 pm (GMT) |
Mike DavisRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308my 5 cents worththe bog std winchester 180grn soft point factory load is simply AWESOME at close bush hunting ranges... soft enough to expand fast,and heavy enough to pass through.... I havent shot a heck of a lot of animals with the 308 but shot enough with that load...and the round nose hornady 180grn sp reloads (nearest thing I could find to duplicate factory load) to be forever sold on them. |
@ 06:21 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Discussion+Forums/x_forum/24/thread/22358.htmlHi Hannah. Take a look at the above post, which discusses the various alternative shots on large deer. A shoulder-shot might preclude pass-through, but will severely restrict locomotion. If the shot is fore or aft, it’s still effective. If it’s dead-on, but not immediately lethal, it will increase the chance of a follow-up. I’ve had close-range, 30-06 shots on 180 lb. deer fail to pass through. A pass-through without a lot of bullet upset is not much good, as Nathan says. Federal’s latest iteration of their magic-bullet is the “Terminal Ascent.” It’s probably as good as the Barnes or Partition, within 150 yards. But why not rely on the tried-and-true? You know you’ll get some hydraulic shock out of the Partition. The chance of core-separation on a shoulder shot, while not zero, is pretty unlikely. |
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@ 07:45 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308Just a few extra points:I avoided talking about shot placement in my above post, sticking to bullet mechanics. Obviously, accurate shot placement can help overcome issues of bullet performance. For example, I have a good friend who is a highly skilled and very calm shot, has good hunting methods and is set up in a good hunting area to the point that he has no trouble keeping his shots within the neck shoulder junction and has been able to use a basic .30 cal Interlock with no issues when hunting Vic Sambar. Snap body shots can however require much greater power if one expects to anchor Sambar on the spot... The .308 does not have the speed or energy to initiate hydrostatic shock on mature Victorian Sambar no matter how it is loaded. In order to achieve some form of nervous reaction with a basic body shot, one needs to employ 225 grains or more bullet weight with impact velocities above 2600fps. These should be considered minimum rather than ideal values. The 200gr Partition can shed its rear core on Sambar after encountering heavy bone at close ranges when fired in a magnum. This can still occur when using a .30-06 at close ranges but at a lower rate. As you said Scott, the chance of this happening in the .308 is very low. To summarize; ideally, one should work toward ideal shot placement. But as Hannah has already suggested, some consideration must be given to poor shot placement if we find ourselves in more difficult situations. High power (energy) is helpful in these situations. If on the other hand we do not have optimum power, it may be hard to work toward a compromise between wound trauma and penetration. On very large bodied animals, a .308 loaded with a copper bullet can struggle to produce adequate wounding (at the quoted ranges) resulting in long dead runs. On the other hand, a 200 grain Partition may produce shorter dead runs but may struggle to exit from certain angles. I still however believe that the .308 is a highly versatile (what I call a hack) cartridge, suiting many hunters for various reasons. It is a matter of understanding strengths and limitations of the .308, then acting upon the information accordingly. For many, this may simply be a case of letting go of myths (marketing etc) and setting realistic expectations. Yes Scott, as you say, magic Federal bullets - as seen on TV here and abroad. If its on the telly, it must be true - the modern approach to science. This is possibly a good bullet option for Hannah but is not something I would want to employ myself outside of testing due to my personal values. Hope that helps a bit. |
@ 08:11 am (GMT) |
Magnus VassbotnRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308My first thougt before reading yours or Nathans suggestions was TTSX 150 or Partition 180/ 200. I've used the ttsx 150 from a 30-06 on eland cow, kudus, and lots of smaller game. Worked well. Also used a 130 grain gs custom from a 308 on a couple of mature kudu. Worked well, bith dead within 50 yards with ok hits.Ps: That wet whelp made my day! Thanks. |
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@ 04:56 pm (GMT) |
Hannah ClemenRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308Hi everyone,Thanks very much for all your insights and advice. Yes, it may be ambitious of me to hope a mature sambar could be stopped in its tracks with a .308, due to its relative bullet weight and velocity capabilities. To date I have shot a number of sambar (including one good sized stag in velvet) with Sierra 165gm Gamekings and 178gm Hornady ELDX, both of which made good internal wounds on lung shots, and most were single shot kills but they did dead run 100m or so before expiring. All of these animals were also broadside shots at between 50-120m, so I was able to get to their internals without much bone impact, but all the same they didn't exit so there was very little blood. I guess my hope is to find a projectile that will give me the best of both worlds, i.e. penetration and substantial internal trauma, but as you said Nathan I also need to be realistic about my expectations. I try to be a disciplined hunter, and would rather pass up a shot than take a bad shot. So, if I load up with a quality controlled expansion projectile it will hopefully give me at least a bit more punch and a few more shot angle options, but to still maintain shot placement discipline even at close range. I have bought some of the 165gn Barnes TTSX (the polymer tipped version of the TSX) and will test them out, but will also look into the Nosler Partitions in 200gn. Although slower, it sounds like they may be a little more forgiving. I am also considering the Woodleigh PP as another option, as a number of my hunting friends use them for sambar as well. Cheers, Hannah |
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@ 07:22 pm (GMT) |
Hannah ClemenRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308I gave all these replies another read and its continued to fuel my thoughts and new concerns about the Barnes. I think I will focus on the Norma Partitions and/or Woodleigh Protected Points as they both seem to offer a better balance between penetration and wounding. If I don't get a passthrough, then it is what it is I guess.... however if I hit heavy bone I should at least have enough power in the Norma or Woodleigh to still mess up the deer's lungs/heart for a quicker kill, and hopefully slow him down for a follow-up shot.Just a quick question Nathan... if I go with the Partitions would it be OK to bump the weight down to 180gn? Similarly with the Woodleighs, I'm thinking either 180 or 165 if you have a recommendation for either weight? Thanks again, Hannah |
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@ 08:03 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308Hi Hannah, sharing your past experience is useful as it provides a common frame of reference.Will work through this bit by bit. The Partition is produced by Nosler, not Norma, though Norma have utilized both the Nosler Partition and Woodleigh Weldcore bullets for many years. Although I have no evidence to support this - it is my belief that the Nosler Partition was designed by people who cared more about results than profits or marketing (versus current trends). All of this came at the beginning of the muscle car / muscle rifle (Weatherby) era, peaking during the 1960's, the attitudes of the time encapsulated later in such movies as The Right Stuff. While this description may seem a bit romantic, one may perhaps understand the picture I am trying to paint - these people created legacies. Another bullet worth mentioning here is the 200 grain Speer Hotcor which in NZ, used to be commonly known as the poor mans Partition. This bullet has very light bonding, enough to encourage penetration without sacrificing wounding as occurs with pretty much all other modern bonded bullets below 2400fps, the only major difference / determining factor between each of the modern projectiles being the various meplat (tip) and ogive profiles. The wound channel produced by the 165gr Gameking is very much the same as that produced by the Partition. So in a way, you already have some idea of how the Partition will go, the Partition producing somewhat deeper penetration. The 180 grain Partition is a traditional Elk bullet, but it may not produce the exit wounds you are wanting. If perhaps you are concerned about recoil or the trajectory of the 200 grain bullet, neither are a concern. As the bullet weight goes up, velocity goes down, one offsetting the other (recoil). Those who talk about using a light bullet to reduce recoil in various calibers, generally mislead both themselves and others. A light bullet driven at mild velocities is of course another story. The trajectory of the 200 grain Partition is easy enough to work with, sight in 2" at 100 yards for a zero of around 185 yards and a 2" drop at around 215 yards or sight 3" high at 100 yards for a zero around 217 yards and a 3" drop at around 250 yards. The Woodleigh is a different animal altogether. The 200 grain Woodleigh is designed for magnum velocities though it performs well in the .30-06. If used in the .308 at 2475fps, this bullet tends to produce a more centralized rather than diffused wound. Penetration is good but it is not ideally suited (width of wounding) to impact velocities of around 2000 to 2200fps if one is taking snap shots. This bullet really needs to be driven into bone. The wounding performance of this bullet at close ranges is akin to using the Gameking at an impact velocity of around 1800fps, you may have some experience with this. The 180gr Woodleigh is designed to expand more readily. It is a good bullet and hold together well, but due to its loss of sectional density during penetration (the mushroomed form), it may not exit game. You may not see any major difference between this and the Gameking as far as what you have already observed during the gutting of game, though the Woodleigh does produce somwwhat deeper penetration. Both the Woodleigh and Partition bullets lose on average 25% weight during penetration (the 200gr Woodleigh may shed less weight when used in the .308). This small level of weight shedding aids energy transfer without compromising penetration. None of the bullets mentioned here can produce an internal wound as wide as the 178gr ELD-X but each are more reliable. If you want to use the ELD-X, consider the 200gr ELD-X as a good minimum. This bullet expands exceptionally well at .308 velocities, is less inclined to shed its jacket early (as per the 178gr) but does lose up to or more than 50% of its weight during penetration. The .30-06 / 220gr ELD-X is a perhaps a better non-premium combo utilizing the ELD-X. Regarding softer projectiles, please refer to my comments in one of the three livestreams I have on youtube. One (cannot remember which sorry) features a discussion about scrub cattle culling using a .308. All of this waffle may by now have confused you. Putting this in simple terms, if you adopt the 200 grain Partition, you will experience the same wounding results that you have seen with the 165gr GK but with somewhat enhanced penetration. There is however no guarantee of an exit, whether using the 200gr Partition (or 180gr Woodleigh) due to the angles you may encounter however it will provide you with something reliable and interesting to experiment with and will allow you to engage in the history of bullet development and to draw your own conclusions as to the evolution of bullet designs thereafter. |
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@ 11:15 am (GMT) |
Scott StruifRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308You learn something new everyday! I always assumed recoil increased with bullet weight, but I now understand it’s decreased muzzle-velocity that results from a heavier bullet. |
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@ 10:55 pm (GMT) |
Hannah ClemenRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308Thanks so much for the detailed and comprehensive information Nathan. Your knowledge and experience is helping me tremendously on so many levels as I develop my skills as a shooter and hunter.My concerns about the heavier projectiles was not about recoil but more about velocity and range. However if I oy use these rounds for 150m shots or less I reckon I'll be ok for velocity even with the 200gn projectiles. I will load some Nosler Partition 200, Woodeigh PP 180 and Barnes TTSX 165 and see how my rifle responds to each of them. I'll also do some testing during spotlight culls and/or shoulders obtained from the local abbatoir. Thanks again, Hannah |
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@ 09:46 am (GMT) |
Nathan FosterRe: Developing an ultimate close range Sambar load for .308Thank you for your kind words Hannah, I just hope the info can be put to practical use.If you start (hunting) with the Partition, this will put you right in the middle of bullet performance. If you find that the Partition does not produce the width of wounding your were expecting (due to typical ranges / impact velocities), you can if you want to, opt for the wider wounding 200 grain ELD-X which expands readily to a good 600 yards. But you will lose some degree of penetration with this. If on the other hand you find that the Partition does not produce sufficient penetration due to the angle of shots taken etc (again relative to hunting methods), you can try a stouter projectile like the Barnes. This is a fairly simple and logical approach to selection. Note that you may get runners no matter which bullet you choose, depending on shot placement. You can nevertheless enhance performance one way or another via your selection. Try your best to not let runners derail your confidence in this process. Just keep working through it. You may also experience runners when testing these bullets on lighter bodied feral game due to insufficient resistance. When hunting lighter weight game, you will be able to draw some basic conclusions but not full conclusions. These initial observations are nevertheless very useful. |
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