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YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.
@ 05:03 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanMy nephew sent me these linkshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMOlK2jwzN0 How we count moose [/url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8FdBM6OLUs[/url] What we do with survey data https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HphraH1haA Alsek moose survey [/url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEtgXQ13GlA[/url] Northern Skeena caribou survey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O68o2R5mF2E Peace moose survey [/url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zu8vmXLdeI[/url] Hart Ranges caribou survey |
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@ 05:07 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.That's pretty bad when you when you can't do the same thing six times in a row without screwing up every other job. I guess you'll just have to copy and paste the ones that didn't highlight. |
@ 06:36 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.They are having a tough go of it because all us older guys retired and the youngsters who moved in to fill our places are trying everything we found never would work rather than follow good technique. All is complicated by interference from Victoria headquarters who try to give them direction without knowing how to do it themselves.Fun to watch...especially now the moose population in your area has crashed like we told them it would. That was completely predictable and was based on high and increasing wolf numbers as well as pack sizes along with First Nations having their freefor all and Victoria with ridiculously liberal moose seasons. We had our moose management in the Peace Region under perfect control with large increases when we retired in 2003. Now we are in the same boat as you are in Prince George. It never pays to have a centralized body calling the shots. Heck I have seen more wolves while hunting elk and moose these past few years than I ever did. Even have shot a pile of them each year. [b] |
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@ 09:04 pm (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Bryan - it's funny how what we view differs from what others see. I am not doubting anything you mention, I just see it from a different perspective."Everyone" "they" "Fish and Wildlife" all keep telling me the moose population is down. Every year I talk to the same hunters in the same place as I hunt, and they all say the same thing. "There's no moose left in this country." Yet, we have just come out of the bush from the day's hunt and seen half a dozen cows, some dry, some with calves, maybe three or four big bulls and a couple of two pointers. And we are hunting no further than a mile away from these groups, but we don't hunt in cutblocks and logging shows.l I saw a pack of seven wolves one day while sitting on a swamp. That was in 1992. Those were the only wolves I've ever seen. We (wife and I) have seen innumerable coyotes, our lynx count is over fifty, moose/elk/deer/bear numbers are too high to bother with. Along with this attempt to tell us that the numbers are down, come the qualifiers of numbers of wolves, Natives, etc. This may all be true and I'm sure that they have an impact on moose populations. But not once have I ever heard what I believe (and maybe that's why I've never heard it, it's just to preposterous to be true) is the main cause for the so-called dwindling of numbers. Before the 1930s, it was an unknown animal in this country. The Carrier-Sekani language has no word for moose. The natives didn't know what they were, obviously, they didn't have a name for it. Once logging opened up this country, the second growth of aspen/poplar/willow was a smorgasbord that could not be ignored. The moose moved in and populations gained ground. Why? Moose love water. We have more than enough. Moose are browsers. Willow and poplar were abundant, along with the water plants. Habitat was perfect. But then, something changed. And I believe it coincided with the then "new" Forest Practices Code set out by the Government of this fair province. Now large multinational forest companies have huge Timber Sale Licenses. They control these tracts with ruthless endeavour. They are here for one thing: the almighty dollar. And no treehugging, granola crunching, purple haired, baggy panted little millennial is going to tell them that they can't spray these vast cut blocks with herbicides to kill off the deciduous shrubs that compete with their precious softwoods. You take any species on this planet and remove it's food source, it will leave or die. So when people say that moose numbers are down, is it because they are hunting at Great Beaver Lake with a million other hunters and herbicided clear cuts? If they can't figure out that the reason there's no moose is that there is no feed, then they should get out of their urban apartments for more than dinner and a movie and learn something about the real world. If you don't see game, why is that? Is it you, or your buddies, or the camp of 135 winnebagos and fifth wheel trailers that house the mighty whisky toting road hunting wannabes? We have four main areas where we hunt. Three of them are within one hour of my back door. We live in 7-10, and if it wasn't for 7-12, I'd say this is the most hunted area for moose around Prince George. Yet on any given day, I could take you out and show you moose. That's not depleted numbers, that's knowing how and where to find them. The fourth is a place called Zippermouth Lake, and on any given day at that location, I could find you probably half a dozen moose. Again, I am not trying to argue or dispute the official numbers or anyone's opinion, I am just saying that there is more to this than wolves and natives and open seasons. I don't think the numbers are down, I think the number of hunters who don't see any are up. And they have voices that are way louder and heard more often in Victoria than the ones that go out and shoot a moose. This is the part where I spout off another opinion, and probably piss you off to no end, but it's what I've seen and been through, so it has basis in fact. I've hunted the Peace region.The first trip up there was in 1991. What a gong show. It was nothing near "perfect control". Without a doubt, there were more moose than I had ever seen. Numbers were astronomically high, for what I was used to seeing. But then, reality hit, and after an off hand unofficial population survey of the immediate area, anyone could see there was big trouble in Lotus Land. (For anyone who is not familiar with the Peace Region of BC, it is (or used to be) called the Serengeti of North America. Vast herds of all kinds of critters, edible or not. You want to see Grizzlies? Go visit Bryan. He's got lots.) In the first three days, I personally counted over one hundred moose. All you had to do is sit on a mountain and look across the valley to the other mountain. One hundred moose, and not one bull, not one calf. I'm not saying that they weren't there. But when a person sees that many moose and no breeders or off-spring, you can be sure something is wrong. And it wasn't habitat related. There were more hunters than moose. There was pitlamping, uncontrolled access to restricted areas, poaching, no regard for laws or regulation. After putting up with this blatant disregard for conservation and civil behaviour, we called the CO office and were told it's too expensive to fly out there by chopper to police these areas. So nice to hear that the very people who are supposed to be in charge of our future are more concerned about their budgets than the ones they are supposed to protect. Add to that the approach that in an early season, you can shoot a prime breeding bull. You can't shoot a cow, because that would kill twelve calves (over her lifelong breeding capabilities). I wonder how many cows that bull could have serviced in his breeding lifetime. One or two hundred? Multiply that by each cow having a dozen calves, that's a lot of moose that will never exist. Are numbers really down? I don't see it. My hunting partners don't see it. You have to ask yourself, where is this information coming from? All sorts of conjecture, all sorts of committees, all sorts of voices, but where are the actual reports with the numbers. If a government does a count it will be three or four years before that report is finalized and released, so what good are those numbers? |
@ 04:00 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Gents -Great discussion. I don't have a clue about what is going on in BC, but I can echo a lot of what Paul is saying for Montana. Its not exactly the same (our multi national timber companies have already beat things to pieces here and have moved to the SE US were softwoods grow much faster and more profit is to be had) , but the similarities are definitely there. Here we are dealing more with elk numbers and without getting too far into the details it was thought by many 15 years ago that elk populations were being decimated by wolves. This on the heels of what were arguably too many elk for the range conditions (well documented in Yellowstone National Park) and the consequent "easy" elk hunting that people enjoyed for too many years - it became the norm. The elk populations did crash in some areas, mostly likely due to over harvest of cows by hunters, deteriorating range conditions, a series of hard winters and wolf predation. It was a perfect storm. But you can guess who got the blame. Today elk numbers are stable to growing dramatically across their range (due in large part to milder than normal winters), we have well established and hunted wolf populations and harvest quotas are way up (if you are a resident you can shoot at least 3 (!) elk a season in some units) and target harvest numbers are almost never met. Why? What indeed constitutes a "healthy" population of elk? There are a number of reasons, but in a nutshell elk have simply gotten harder to hunt, especially since off road hunting has been banned or greatly limited by road closures on public lands. This and the locking up of private land in some areas has made "gettin' yer elk" something less than an guaranteed annual ritual. I personally know check station employees that have heard hunters disgustedly complain " I drove 200 miles today and never saw an elk! - too many g......n wolves!" And yet our elk season lasts into February for many units - 6 months if you count archery seasons. The elk are not stupid - they naturally move to places they can't be constantly harassed. Wolves have definitely played their part in moving elk around (and eating some too, but that's what wolves have always done) and you may not be able to shoot your cow 200 yards from the nearest road. To me the bottom line is that people will almost always blame some outside force rather than their own laziness and unwillingness to learn about the larger and more complex picture. Its the easy way out and does not force anyone to consider their own behavior as a possible factor - well documented human behavior across history. Packing out elk meat over a couple extra ridges is much more difficult than complaining about the dearth of elk. Except that the numbers just don't add up. |
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@ 04:33 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Paul it is good to see such an expert on the Peace Region. |
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@ 01:08 am (GMT) |
Paul LevermanRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Mark, if not for the species, it certainly sounds familiar. So many factors have to be considered, yet the revenue that hunters generate cannot be dismissed. So the Crown (or State) have to juggle all the parties of interest and come up with a solution. An almost impossible task, especially when you throw the climate wrench into the mess. Locally, we've had a mixture of winters that definitely took their toll. Deep snow and harsh cold don't really seem to bother the moose, it's more the opposite. If the snow is limited and we go through a freeze/thaw/freeze cycle, it makes it easier for predators to stay on top of the crust. We have a tick that attacks the moose and severely drains their ability to survive. Part of their (the tick's) life cycle is when they detach themselves from the moose in late spring. They just let go and fall off. If they land on snow, they die. So the early springs we have been experiencing are perfect for the ticks, and deadly for the moose the following winter. It's another way that climate change is wreaking havoc with wildlife. Changing weather patterns, habitat loss, increasing hunter numbers. That's an uphill battle for any species. |
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@ 03:46 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Paul -Our moose sub species (Shiras) is doing very poorly statewide except for the population that lives locally around here. Our population has boomed (largely due to great local wetland habitat and almost zero harvest) but we also have had the tick issue erupt over the last few mild winters. You can see moose that look almost bi-color or pied due to the massive numbers of pale grey ticks hanging from them in the spring. It makes them weak and emaciated and it makes me wonder what mortality is going to be like this year with the harsh winter we are having. I am all for science and better knowledge, but the fact that our FWP is darting/collaring as many cows as possible has to have some effect on the ones already weakened by tick infestation. I am confident that as climate continues to warm our moose populations will further contract. Its not just moose of course, but everything else including plant species that will have to adapt. Once the plant community starts shifting (likely northward or up in elevation) it throws the whole system off kilter - sometimes more, sometimes less. I'm betting animals more adaptable to humans and change (like elk and whitetails) will do fine. More specialized creatures like moose - not so much. And yes - having wildlife management agencies with budgets based on license revenue and otherwise controlled by the State Legislature is a recipe for disaster that invites over reaction to perceived problems and empty freezers. In addition, here the head of our FWP is a also a political appointment that changes with the winds of election. Not only does this person often not have a background based in biology/science, they are usually thrown out with the bathwater when a new administration comes to power and naturally subject to whatever favor is owed the new king for a day. From a wildlife standpoint this isn't always bad, but for working biologists trying to manage wildlife populations over the long haul such a system is ludicrous at best. Humans will be humans. |
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@ 12:38 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Here is some infor from UNBC on the winter tick for your info. Here in the Peace Region it is most present and moose infestations of this tick most observable in the open agricultural areas. The extremenly large open cutbacks are also attractive to these ticks as well as moose, and in areas across British Columbia and Alberta with large cutbacks these ticks are a problem.Here is the link: http://wildlifedisease.unbc.ca/winter_tick.htm Moose around Forst St. John infested with ticks are as described and mortality can be high with more effect during nasty winters. We have also observed many females aborting their fetus due to blood loss. This effect has little to do with moose densities but the fact that they are using the habitat most beneficial to the various stages of these ticks. |
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@ 12:52 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Here is a link to a publication which better explains the life cycle of this tick.http://nrri.d.umn.edu/moose/information/WinterTick.html |
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@ 03:55 am (GMT) |
mark korteRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Thanks Bryan - I'll check it out. What you say about open habitat makes sense - we are at the mountain/grassland interface and the moose are concentrated in large peat wetlands ringed with dense willows and aspen parks, but open sedge meadow in the centers and surrounded by miles of grasslands on three sides. Save the wetlands it is wide open compared to denser forested mountain areas just a few miles to the west. Ticks are very prevalent again this year but my understanding is that this harsh winter should suppress the larvae and they probably won't be such a problem next spring. |
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@ 04:54 am (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.Unfortunately the life cycle favours the ticks, as they fasten themselves to moose mostly in late September and up to the end of October. Once on the moose the total number of ticks (can be up to 40,000 or more on one moose) limits the health of the moose and its ability to survive winter weather. Hardest of course on females. Factors enabling lots of ticks are harder to generalize but we have observed significant fluctuations in their numbers in October with the very few sturdies that have been done. |
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@ 01:59 pm (GMT) |
Bryan WebsterRe: YouTube Vids from the BC Govt.I should have added, that once they get to their final instar stage and drop off the moose, they find their way into the soil and lay eggs, then over the summer and early fall, go through several other life stages before climbing up onto branchs 3 to 5 feet off the ground and wait for a moose to pass by. when one does, they cling to it and begin their feeding on the blood. Many times as noted in one of the links, hundreds of ticks form sort of a cluster, joined together when they are really numerous. The entire cluster infests any moose passing by. Then the cycle continues. Terribly wet springs and summers can have a impact on their ability to build numbers.As far as I am aware nobody has identified any bacteria or viruses they might spread, but I have been out of the research field for some time so may not be aware of that. |
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